Surviving Japan

[Deja~VU]

They said that learning Japanese is very difficult. I'm just wondering: Is that true?

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

Er... who said that?

And even if it were true, isn't the obvious answer "learn Japanese"?

[Javer]

Well, it tends to be easier in my meager experience to speak than to write. Proper Japanese writing consists of three "alphabets": hiragana (basic cursive), katakana (often used for words derived from other languages) and kanji (Chinese characters). While the first two can be memorized fairly quickly with practice, say a few months on average, kanji can be as simple as two strokes of the pen or as complex as eight.

Again, just from what I've seen.

Not only that, but certain kanji can be translated and interpreted a few different ways depending on how they're used in context. And just to read a newspaper, you're supposed to know around 1,200 different kanji. Mastering the language is no small feat.

Of course, that's not completely necessary to be understood. :P But speaking it (that is, learning pronounciation and sentence structure and all that other jazz) can be easier. But I have to wonder why you ask . . . Thinking about taking a course on the language?

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

Actually, kanji can be anywhere from 1 to 18 strokes, and there are probably rare ones that go over 20.

But no, learning Japanese is actually rather simple. There's a distinct lack of irregular verbs. As long as you can get the concept behind particles and the SOV word order, it's all pretty straight forward.

The main trick to the language is a) kanji and b) keigo - and really, its b) that's far worse.

Basically, easy to get the hang of, very difficult (even for native speakers) to master.

[Javer]

Right. See? I've hardly begun to delve into the language, and I can tell you that much.

[LadyYuina]

I took a Japanese class for two years during high school...Got an "A" the first year, and then I went down to a "B" in my second year, because I felt it was getting harder. Really depends on the person though, because some may take longer to grasp the concept of the Japanese language, while others take lesser time and catch on quickly. I was one of the one's that took a bit longer...managed to scratch by, though. XD

[Deja~VU]

Yes of course because I'm just asking, I sing in Japanese very well, but have no clue what the words mean, does that mean I will successfully speak in Japanese fluently?

[ash_chan]

What it means is that you'll have a better grasp at how to pronouce the words as you learn. However, it doesn't mean that it'll be any easier to be fluent. I'm pretty good at singing in Japanese, and it has helped me remember quite a few things in class, but I still have trouble in some areas [like particles and kanji].

[laborpilot86]

don't diss your okasan's cooking and don't diss the Imperial Family

[kyubichan]

I find it hard to memorize all the Kanji, but I had no problems in putting together a sentence when my uncle was teaching me a bit of Japanese. As for speaking Japanese, not so hard for me either because Japanese and Filipino words sound a bit similar.

[LadyYuina]

What it means is that you'll have a better grasp at how to pronouce the words as you learn. However, it doesn't mean that it'll be any easier to be fluent. I'm pretty good at singing in Japanese, and it has helped me remember quite a few things in class, but I still have trouble in some areas [like particles and kanji].

Oh god yes, I hate the particles in sentences. I never know when to use which one in what part/area of a sentence. That stuff drives me insane!:bashhead

[animanic_critic]

Yes of course because I'm just asking, I sing in Japanese very well, but have no clue what the words mean, does that mean I will successfully speak in Japanese fluently?

Singing fluently in Japanese is one thing, speaking Japanese fluently is another. Yes, like ash-chan has pointed out, it will help you to pronounce the verbs easier because I personally learn how the verbs sound like and how to say them before actually knowing how to use them and the definition behind them.

Concerning whether studying Japanese is difficult and the idea of kanji characters, I have met some Chinese people (close friends of mine) who have claimed that Japanese is a tough subject, particularly the kanji. The reason for them is that they are already accustomed to the meaning of the kanji characters in their native language (since they're Chinese characters) but it may have a different meaning in Japanese, so they may end confusing the meanings in both Japanese and for instance, Mandarin.

They did say that for those who have no idea how kanji works, it may work as an advantage because it means that they will be learning kanji from scratch, thereby no sense of confusion with other languages. The thing is, since they're learning it from scratch, it'll be nonetheless be difficult.

If you're really interested into studying Japanese, then your singing may help in the long run. Usually, for language subjects it truly helps if you have a hobby or two that relates to the concerned language. I believe that there are a number of members here adopt the hobby of watching anime to help them in their Japanese learning prowess?

don't diss your okasan's cooking and don't diss the Imperial Family
Huh?

[ash_chan]

Oh god yes, I hate the particles in sentences. I never know when to use which one in what part/area of a sentence. That stuff drives me insane!:bashhead


I know.

"Is this supposed to a wa or a ga?....Wait....wo? Why is it wo? That doesn't make any sense! There's an exception? Always an exception... You could've said that before, you know."

[Deja~VU]

don't diss your okasan's cooking and don't diss the Imperial Family

OK? What the heck are you talking about? :eyebrow:

[laborpilot86]

I thought you were talking about getting through your average day in Japan (oops) So add to my first post........

If you watch enough anime and live action film in the original language with subtitles, you might find yourself picking many essential words and phrases like 'please', 'thanks/thank you', 'yo're welcome', 'yes/no/maybe' etc. This can give a real leg up when learning to speak a language, but is useless when trying to learn to write a language.

[isolatedotaku]

I took a Japanese class for two years during high school...Got an "A" the first year, and then I went down to a "B" in my second year, because I felt it was getting harder. Really depends on the person though, because some may take longer to grasp the concept of the Japanese language, while others take lesser time and catch on quickly. I was one of the one's that took a bit longer...managed to scratch by, though. XD

I think Yuina hit one of the harder nails on the head, it all depends on the person really.

Personally, I enjoy monotonous tasks (like practicing kanji until my fingers hurt and math) so I have a slight advantage over my classmates in my Japanese class that don't enjoy writing tiny characters repeatly.

What I found it really helps learning Japanese is spending time in Japan. While this is usually the last step in a person's path to learning Japanese, I think it helps a lot in the long run. Japanese spoken in Japan tends to be different from the Japanese you're taught in the states. Not that the language is different, but how it is spoken is different (tense, plain/polite, slang, etc.).

Overall, Japanese is a lot easier to learn then say Spanish (the only other language I have had experience studying). The whole verb conjugation is simple once the concepts are grasps and the writing system makes a lot of sense once you reach a high enough level.

[Deja~VU]

I think Yuina hit one of the harder nails on the head, it all depends on the person really.

Personally, I enjoy monotonous tasks (like practicing kanji until my fingers hurt and math) so I have a slight advantage over my classmates in my Japanese class that don't enjoy writing tiny characters repeatly.

What I found it really helps learning Japanese is spending time in Japan. While this is usually the last step in a person's path to learning Japanese, I think it helps a lot in the long run. Japanese spoken in Japan tends to be different from the Japanese you're taught in the states. Not that the language is different, but how it is spoken is different (tense, plain/polite, slang, etc.).

Overall, Japanese is a lot easier to learn then say Spanish (the only other language I have had experience studying). The whole verb conjugation is simple once the concepts are grasps and the writing system makes a lot of sense once you reach a high enough level.

Yeah because NOW I have to be...what's that word that means speaking more then one language? :sweatdrop

[Javer]

Bilingual.

Why do you have to be?

[Deja~VU]

Bilingual.

Why do you have to be?

Because I going to learn how to speak Spanish (of course), French, and Japanese :bashhead

[Javer]

Oh . . . then that's . . . quadrilingual? :\

Anyway, best of luck. You're already proficient in Spanish and French? =D

[Deja~VU]

Oh . . . then that's . . . quadrilingual? :\

Anyway, best of luck. You're already proficient in Spanish and French? =D

Yeah, but I know 22 words for Spanish and a very small amount of French that I've learned in 3rd grade.

[madpierrot]

Not only that, but certain kanji can be translated and interpreted a few different ways depending on how they're used in context. And just to read a newspaper, you're supposed to know around 1,200 different kanji. Mastering the language is no small feat.

1,945 Kanji to read a newspaper

and I don't know if this is strokes or lines, but unless I was told wrong there's a 30 lines Kanji that translates to bird of god, but i doubt many people really need to know bird of god in their daily lives. The problem is that something like pork is even a bit difficult.

[Roark]

Yeah because NOW I have to be...what's that word that means speaking more then one language? :sweatdrop
I believe the word you're looking for is "non-American"

[Deja~VU]

I believe the word you're looking for is "non-American"

O.o What are you talking about?! Of course these languages are "Non-American" -.-;

[Roark]

O.o What are you talking about?! Of course these languages are "Non-American" -.-;
It's a joke. Americans, by and large, only speak English. So, speaking more than one language means not being american.

It's funny. Laugh.

[Deja~VU]

It's a joke. Americans, by and large, only speak English. So, speaking more than one language means not being american.

It's funny. Laugh.

:_lol: I didn't get at first. My bad.

[laborpilot86]

:rolleyes:

Wow, nearly 2,000 kanji just read the paper in the morning...

No wonder Japanese people give major brownie points to foreigners who even attempt to learn the language.

One thing i would also imagine to be quite difficult would be differant forms of body language and hand gestures that form part of every language, much less Japanese.

[animanic_critic]

:rolleyes:

Wow, nearly 2,000 kanji just read the paper in the morning...

No wonder Japanese people give major brownie points to foreigners who even attempt to learn the language.

One thing i would also imagine to be quite difficult would be differant forms of body language and hand gestures that form part of every language, much less Japanese.
To tell you the truth, knowing 2000 kanji is no huge deal because it is the standard for adequate living in Japan... not to mention, it is a requirement in order to pass the Japanese Language Proficiency Test (JLPT) Level 1 anyway.

It's still a far cry compared to the Test of Japanese Kanji Aptitude (a.k.a. Kenji Keitei) where its highest level tests about over 6000 kanji.

[ZZalapski]

Kind-of-random question:

Is ASL used in Japan? If not, then what is the predominant sign language for deaf people there?

[ash_chan]

:rolleyes:

One thing i would also imagine to be quite difficult would be differant forms of body language and hand gestures that form part of every language, much less Japanese.

My Japanese 1 teacher from last year had trouble with the change in body language. Years ago, when she first went to Japan as a model, her guide was waving her over, but the hand motion to "come here" in Japan is similar to the "Shoo, go away" motion in America. So she kept backing up, but he's shaking his head and attempting to beckon her closer. Eventually he walked over and explained that he'd been trying to get her to come closer and apologized for any misunderstanding.

[Erigion]

Kind-of-random question:

Is ASL used in Japan? If not, then what is the predominant sign language for deaf people there?Since ASL means American Sign Language I seriously doubt that it's used very much or taught in Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Sign_Language

[laborpilot86]

Considering how the basis for Japanese writing is the Chinese writing system, which works with symbols representing concepts in addition to symbols representing sounds, Japanese sign language must be really really hard for non-Japanese people to learn.


Another thing you can pick from anime and live-action film is the hand gestures and body language:thumbup:

[Angi]

I personally think it depends on your determination. If you are set on learning, it's not as hard. I'm barely starting right now, learning first how to write hiragana. The hardest thing about this is doing the repetitions while saying the words in order not to forget.

[animanic_critic]

I personally think it depends on your determination. If you are set on learning, it's not as hard. I'm barely starting right now, learning first how to write hiragana. The hardest thing about this is doing the repetitions while saying the words in order not to forget.
Just putting it mildly though, that should be one of the simplest things you may need to do in your journey in studying Japanese. This phase only needs you to practise regularly, and after you do, it will be utterly simple.

Howeve, things will be nowhere near simple once you begin learning about kanji and perhaps keigo.

[Deja~VU]

Agh! This is making my brain hurt...brain cramp...brain cramp :thud:

[laborpilot86]

we gettin' to intellectual for ya, Deja~Vu.

[Deja~VU]

Yes, I must say, you all have your ways :bowing:

[ash_chan]

Yes, I must say, you all have your ways :bowing:

If keeping up is a chore, you might want to take it nice and slow when learning the language(s?). I can pretty much promise you that you're going to have trouble at times. You're going to want to quit. But don't, because learning more languages will help you in the long run...And they're gosh-darn fun at times.

[Deja~VU]

If keeping up is a chore, you might want to take it nice and slow when learning the language(s?). I can pretty much promise you that you're going to have trouble at times. You're going to want to quit. But don't, because learning more languages will help you in the long run...And they're gosh-darn fun at times.

Yes, I have to look over the outcomes of learning these languages & to vision how much I would acomplish in the future, no matter how much of a pain it is. ^^

[laborpilot86]

I love learning swear words from different languages, because you can insult your boss and get nothing but a quizzical look in return.:yes:

[ash_chan]

I love learning swear words from different languages, because you can insult your boss and get nothing but a quizzical look in return.:yes:

...Unless you're unlucky and get a multilingual boss who happens to know the language you're using.

> 3>;

[Deja~VU]

...Unless you're unlucky and get a multilingual boss who happens to know the language you're using.

> 3>;

Ah, come on. You took the fun out of it, ash-chan -.-;

[ash_chan]

Ah, come on. You took the fun out of it, ash-chan -.-;

Well, I'm in an area where many people speak more than one language.
Sorry.
;x

[Deja~VU]

Well, I'm in an area where many people speak more than one language.
Sorry.
;x

People that already learned those languages, just suck automaticly -.-;