Another reason why Japanese civilization should be destroyed.

[Zushio]

I bring you Oh! No Pants Girls! another quailty Japanese kid's show. You can view the trailer here

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=827482134530723937

In case you are wondering, the plot of this TV series is:

Part of a 3 part JapaneseTV dorama now on DVD.

3 bored elementary school girls take their under pants off and auction them off for "sniffing" parties.

The boys go nuts trying to find out who's under pants are who's...but when one of the girls has their first period, the fun begins.....starring Sweet Kiss.

Oh and in case anyone missed it, Sweet Kiss is the band that Saaya Irie is a part of, you know the 11 year old girl with the D-cup breasts?

Yeah, so as much as I love some anime, I say we just bomb Japan.

[Pachinko]

Bye bye, homies.

Let's do this.

[Sephiroth-777]

Yeah thats the Japanese for you.

[isolatedotaku]

If we went around bombing everything that we view as different, nothing would be left. This seems weird to those of us who live outside of Japan, but it probably doesn't seem that obscene in Japan. They watch little girls selling panties, we watch meth heads and whores get tackled by police.

[Javer]

Yeah, those bastards are sick. Just . . . sick.

Oh and in case anyone missed it, Sweet Kiss is the band that Saaya Irie is a part of, you know the 11 year old girl with the D-cup breasts?

I thought it was 13 and full C.

Anyway, where was I? Oh, right. SICKOS.

[Tyrdium]

They watch little girls selling panties, we watch meth heads and whores get tackled by police.On kid's shows?

[Sephiroth-777]

If we went around bombing everything that we view as different, nothing would be left. This seems weird to those of us who live outside of Japan, but it probably doesn't seem that obscene in Japan. They watch little girls selling panties, we watch meth heads and whores get tackled by police.


Thats true and I personaly dont anything that wierd about it, I view it as just a thing they do, that would just not go over that well here in the states. As to what you said IO all I saw in my head was an episode of Cops I saw the other day.

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

Yeah, but meth heads and whores SHOULD get tackled by police, since they're violating the law and all that. It would be different if we watched to see which drug addict could get himself the highest within an allotted time span, but we don't.

[laborpilot86]

The Japanese are just differant...


They think Americans are weird too.

[Yodatsubato]

After WWII, I thought we went in and Americanized their culture?

Well, I guess it's better than kamikaze pilots and all that.

[General Suburbia]

If we went around bombing everything that we view as different, nothing would be left. This seems weird to those of us who live outside of Japan, but it probably doesn't seem that obscene in Japan. They watch little girls selling panties, we watch meth heads and whores get tackled by police.
I'm not so sure that's the case. I always thought that such "different" fetishes and perversions were not considered ok even by the japanese. more like something that was there but never to be spoken of, some weird paradoxical taboo. I read about how many of the exotic strip clubs in japan rake in the money like candy, but many people around the neighborhood still never talk about it or acknowledge its existance. They know it's "sick" or "bad", but the generally reserved japanese will probably do very little about it.

I'll try and make more sense of what i wrote later (reading it now, this is one of the most nosensical posts ive made here), but basically, i think they need another bomb

[animanic_critic]

I' ve just watched the clip and I'm disturbed by it... and that's putting it mildly. I'm not fazed at the idea (or trend if you will because it's been around for a considerable amount of time) but I am at how it was shown - in a carefree 'G'-rated manner.

It may be considered a fetish to those who digs this concept, but personally anything that deals with female minors' undergarments just freaks me out. You can count me out on this one... XP

[Pedro The Hutt]

On kid's shows?

In Japan, what qualifies as a kids show is entirely different than it is over here in the west. (Uncensored DBZ is a kid's show in Japan, over here censored DBZ is rated as a teens show)

Say it with me: Cultural. Difference.

[Tyrdium]

Say it with me: Cultural. Difference.Yes, but there is a rather large difference between uncensored DBZ and selling used panties.

[ant]

This looks like it is making fun of the whole fetish of panty mania here. Not sure if the elementary girls show nudity in this show but I doubt it. Children doing this may just be for comedic value. Where there is very little violence in Japan it more than makes up for it with sexual deviancy. I prefer the latter.
@ General Suburbia I understood your post, its the whole See, Hear, Speak no evil.

[Dark Lord]

*shiver* Now that is just wrong...

I find it disgusting how some people would sink this low in order to attract viewers... If this is modern day Japan, I believe that Japan is slowly falling apart due to its deteriorating values...

[Pachinko]

I find it disgusting how some people would sink this low in order to attract viewers... If this is modern day Japan, I believe that Japan is slowly falling apart due to its deteriorating values...
Just like ancient Rome. And America.

But, seriously, we shouldn't judge absolutely every Japanese kids' show on this one alone. There are plenty that do not envolve adolescent panty-sniffing.

[kyubichan]

Oh and in case anyone missed it, Sweet Kiss is the band that Saaya Irie is a part of, you know the 11 year old girl with the D-cup breasts?


This already freaked me out.

[Pedro The Hutt]

I had a classmate like that when I was a kid. >.>;;

And still, it's a pretty bold claim that because of a TV show that doesn't slot into your tiny little moralistic window that "Japanese civilisation should be destroyed". How very awfully Dalek to say.

[KiraraKim]

This is disturbing, kids should not be doing stuff like this and it certainly shouldn't be encouraged on a TV show. And I bet it isn't only kids who are watching this. :thumbdown

[Ieyasu]

Well...

Yeah. Cultural differences. I'm gonna go stand over here now.

But seriously, Japan has a more liberal attitude to sex and sexulity and things of that nature. I thought we all knew this already?

[madpierrot]

*shiver* Now that is just wrong...

I find it disgusting how some people would sink this low in order to attract viewers... If this is modern day Japan, I believe that Japan is slowly falling apart due to its deteriorating values...

Wow, lets not go and throw an entire country under the bus b/c of one TV show. I think you're a bit off here to over generalize all of Japan like that. Also plus I'm just too indifferent to everything, but eh... I don't really see a big deal here. Heck one of my favorite dramas is 14 sai no haha or 14 year old mother about, you guessed it, a 14 year old girl who gets pregnant and that gets great ratings from what I see, but it's also a serious drama.

I'm also curious if this is like a straight up "kids show" or if it's more like a south park type show where if you just look at it you might not think adult, risky, satire that actuall for adults. However it doesn't really quite look that way. Oh well, either way I think Japan will some how manage to live through this.

[7Raven7]

Your right, America doesn't have anything quite so tasteless or obsene...

...


...


Also, from what I gathered Japan is a little more comfortable about sexuality at young ages and a little less obsessed with it when grown up than America is. Overall, a little more well-rounded I'd say seeing as the Japanese never went through a Victorian age.

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

There's sexuality at young ages and sexuality at ages that the human body isn't designed for sexuality. We're not talking about 14-16 merely underage individuals. These people are ELEVEN FREAKING YEARS OLD.

[Sephiroth-777]

Your right, America doesn't have anything quite so tasteless or obsene...

...


...


Also, from what I gathered Japan is a little more comfortable about sexuality at young ages and a little less obsessed with it when grown up than America is. Overall, a little more well-rounded I'd say seeing as the Japanese never went through a Victorian age.




This is true if you look it seems that America has a higher teen pregnancy and abortion rate then most other countries. This may seem sick and twisted to us but I really dont see an uproar happening in Japan about this, and
like some others have said we are just a really diffrent country morally, and I dont think thats a reason to blow them up, I mean alot of ppl were put to death because they were diffrent than the "American Belief System" but does that mean they were wrong, just look at what the Christians did to the Pagans during the Salam Whitch Trials. But say what you well your entitled to your opinion, Iam not really saying that anyone is completly wrong or totaly right.

[Kaioshin_Sama]

Yeah, I was actually the one who discovered this little gem of Japanese Culture during one of my unfortunate dives into the internet that went a little too far (some guy's sig on a message board actually). I then shared it with Zushio and it was one of the few times I've ever gotten his attention on MSN for more than 2 seconds (usually only happens when I'm not very deep in terms of conversation). I am pretty desensitized to almost everything but this managed to bother me somehow.

For a while I was debating on whether to give him the link or not, but had a feeling he would be at least slighting amused. And since he steals all of my wonderful and not so wonderful observations and discoveries and posts them here I'm not terribly surprised to find this thread. So then, now everyone knows about it and I'm wondering if I may have unintentionally created a meme here. Just keep in mind that a fair portion of what Zushio says actually comes from my observations or is at least based on them.

That being said, should Japan be destroyed? No. Do they need help finding a collective culture, not based on immorality? Maybe.

On a side note, there is a movement called the Superflat style which attempts to depict the worst aspects of Japanese culture in simplistic 2 dimensional art, conveying the message that Japanese culture is flat and without depth as well as using that flatness to convey aspects of Japanese culture ranging from historical aspects to outright hentai.

[7Raven7]

just look at what the Christians did to the Pagans during the Salam Whitch Trials.

Salem witch trials would have been Christians persecuting other Christians and other than that I agree with you. :)

[ant]

Sexual harrassment laws are very strict here. A 2 year jail sentence can be imposed if you do such things and get caught. I am not sure why this is a surprise to most people here since you watch this stuff in anime and read it in manga. As far as the 11 year old is concerned she is quiet happy making 3Gs a photo shoot. If she was smart she would want a cut in all the merchandise that is being sold.

[ash_chan]

That being said, should Japan be destroyed? No. Do they need help finding a collective culture, not based on immorality? Maybe.



But they probably have a different sense of immorality than we do, thus, we head back to the "cultural differences" section of the discussion.

[Neo-Hunter]

Well, I have to agree with the cultural diffrences,so the show is a bit strange. but I read somewhere's that you can get panty's out of a vending machine their so basicly its a strange socity and who are we to judge what they do. hence forth the whole cultural diffrence comes in place.

[EMY23-23]

Someone brought up an excellent point with the whole deteriation of the Japanese culture. Look at the way Japan runs as a country now, it is extremely structured in the sense where if someone of importance doesn't do their role properly a large section of their society (government, agriculture, or other) could fall hard. The current generation that makes up the Japanese infrastructure (as well as the next few to come) has a certain work ethic and sense of morality (minus a few bad seeds) that allows Japan to work as the country is now. You can already see the beginning of the downfall of the Japanese culture, just take a look at the younger generations and it's pretty clear. Think about just twenty years how proper the Japanese people were and look at the society now. It's shows like these that contribute to this downfall and the growing absence of morals and values. Eventually enough of the population is going to be changed to the point where the country will just not be able to work with its limited resources and lack of land.
But that's all a projected speculation at this point. We'll see in ten years how the country is doing.

[laborpilot86]

If i had a choice between sexual fetish played for laughs and rampant blood-soaked violence in my culture....

sexual deviency=flawless victory

[madpierrot]

You can already see the beginning of the downfall of the Japanese culture, just take a look at the younger generations and it's pretty clear.

No, I don't see the downfall of Japanese cultural could you actually explain this one a bit.

Think about just twenty years how proper the Japanese people were and look at the society now. It's shows like these that contribute to this downfall and the growing absence of morals and values. Eventually enough of the population is going to be changed to the point where the country will just not be able to work with its limited resources and lack of land.
But that's all a projected speculation at this point. We'll see in ten years how the country is doing.

Again I'm confused by how the Japanese apparent massive problem in the decline of moral and values will lead to the country just colapsing?

I mean am I the only one shocked here that people are actually saying an entire nation is crumbling b/c of a preview of one TV show? Perhaps I just don't like being the culture police, but who are we to speak about one show bringing down and entire nation. Anyone else think there are more serious problems that this nation has to deal with like talks on nuclear weapons, aging and shrinking population, stagnant economey, heck even stuff like heavy smoking, recently student suicides and the bring culture in the difference in wages between men and women. Yet panties are going to be the downfall of a developed nation.

[Ieyasu]

I think imma gonna imagine just how everyone seems to be portraying this T.V. show and its effects on the nation of Japan.

The year is 2006. A show featuring indecent, pre-sexual awareness involving the auctioning of eleven year old girls' undergarments hits the screens of Japan, wiping out the already fragile sense of morality possessed by Japan's quite frankly satanic youth. The effects are immediate. Young men across the country begin a campaign of harassment against pre-teen females. The situation quickly escalates. Anyone over the age of 21 is scared to leave their home, terrified they will be set upon by one of the many gangs now roaming the streets. Comprised of the local youth, their minds hopelessly warped and all sense of moral decency swept away by the appearance of the accursed programme, these gangs do as they will, stealing all the female underwear they can find, draping it over their bodies in an ultimate expression of a perverse lack of inhibition.

In their offices, television executives sink to their knees, the full horror of what they unleashed only now apparent to them. Civilisation as we know it colapses around them as they finally realise what it is they have brought about.

"Dear God, what have we done? What have we done?"

*Japan Implodes*

You guys need to get something straight in your heads. People the world over have been citing the loose morals of the young as a recipe for disaster for generations now. It has always been like that, it will always be like that.

Now, I haven't noticed society falling apart in an almighty orgy of depravity yet. Have you?

No. And it won't be doing it anytime soon, I can assure you, and definitely not because of some shitty T.V. show which most people will probably shun anyway. Japan is not going to collapse because one of its programme has questionable content. Kay?

[EMY23-23]

Hmmm... I'm having trouble wording my thoughts so that they make sense. Um, Look at the current situation of the US. We used to be the most powerful, respected, and feared country in the world because of our role in World War II. There has been a sharp decline in our influence over other countries, as well as a massive wave of anti-Americanism spread across the world. Unless something major happens in the world where the US bails everyone out, China and eventually India will surpass the US as the world's leaders. This will severely affect our economy as well as our far reaching influence until the point comes where the US is just another super power country, not THE super power country we once were. We have to ask what the reasons for this decline are? Most likely its because the modern US culture and our set of values are, and excuse my lack for a better term, absolute shit. Our youth idolize people like Paris Hilton and other celebrities. Hell, more people know what Britney Spears did last week than world events. 8 year old models, preteen skank dressers whose parents allow this, these kids are the future of America and are growing up in a society that places emphasis on material goods and being a slut. For the youth who turn away from that and follow a more "educated" stance have our garbage media that preach all of our leadership is bad and the world is a horrible place. When was the last time you heard about good news on any major station for more than a minute? Take these kids growing up in this modern world and have them run the country, each generation will get worse and worse. Especially with the garbage everyone is exposed to on the internet these days.

The point I was trying to make with Japan is that they are at the beginning of this decline that I just described for the US. The biggest difference between the US and Japan is, that Japan cannot afford to have this happen because of the fragile way their country is currently set up.

Sorry if some of my arguements seem choppy, I'm at work and typing this between jobs.



Now, I haven't noticed society falling apart in an almighty orgy of depravity yet. Have you?

You mean like the Roman civilization...that fell, hard. Yea, it's not exactly something that happens overnight. It's a long, slow process. And yea the world is getting worse.



No. And it won't be doing it anytime soon, I can assure you, and definitely not because of some shitty T.V. show which most people will probably shun anyway. Japan is not going to collapse because one of its programme has questionable content. Kay?


Again, it's not the one show, it's the fact that it's now socially acceptable for shows like these to be aired and watched.

[Ieyasu]

Please read what I said and take all of it into account instead of picking and choosing which bits of it you refute.

People need to stop citing Rome as an example of degrading morals bringing a society down. No one knows exactly why Rome fell, but I think we can be pretty damn sure that millitary issues had more to do with it than the social state of it's citizens. Stop coming up with this pseudo-mythical stuff about how the Roman Empire was destroyed because of widespread debauchery.

You mean like the Roman civilization...that fell, hard. Yea, it's not exactly something that happens overnight. It's a long, slow process. And yea the world is getting worse.

If you can name me ONE other example of a civilisation that fell because of decaying moral standards, I'll conceed my point. Rome did not fall for that reason, so find another example.

The world is getting worse you say?

A hundred years ago people were setting each other on fire because they didn't like them much, using a supposedly compassionate religion as a pretext. People were enslaving whole nations and then transporting them like possessions to their own country. It was acceptable to be openly xenophobic and racist. Women were viewed as inferior and were generally subject to their male counterparts. The death of just one man triggered a war that took the lives of millions. The British Empire covered a quarter of the globe, subjugating people of many different nations. That's naming just some of horrible things that have happened in recent history.

Shall we go a little further back? Do you know where the word spreadeagled comes from? It's originally a norse, medieval term that refers to the action of cutting a man open and spreading his rib cage so that his (potentialy still alive) body resembles an eagle with it's wings out streatched. I'm sure you know what an iron maiden is. Spanish Inquisition? Did you know that in feudal England, the punishment for hunting in the forest of your lord was punishable by having your hands cut off? How about that in ancient Sparta it wasn't uncommon for sickly or weak children to be left outside to die?

Now, maybe it's just me, but I think we've made some progress in the last few hundred years. The world is not getting worse, this is indisputable. If anything, it's getting better.

Again, it's not the one show, it's the fact that it's now socially acceptable for shows like these to be aired and watched.

Ever seen the film Hostel? I'm going to make the assumption that, since you think that this Japanese show being socially acceptable is an issue, you would condemn a movie like Hostel (which contains large amount of graphic violence), along with the society that deems it socially acceptable to permit this film? So, that means that all countrys that showed this film would also be in a state of moral decay? Ok, by your logic Argentina, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway, the Philippines, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom are all on the road to disaster?

I find this unlikely.

Come on, the world over there are perverse things to be watched on T.V., the silver screen, wherever. It isn't limited to America or Japan. The point is that the existance of shows like this isn't indicative of a falling of ethical standards, merely a more liberal approach to what people are allowed to see.

As to your point about a progressive worsening of standards each generation, I can only say what I've already said:

People the world over have been citing the loose morals of the young as a recipe for disaster for generations now. It has always been like that, it will always be like that.

The thing is, people mistake a shift in ethical standards for a drop in ethical standards. A hundred and fourty years ago, I can bet you that a lot of people said that it was a drop in ethical standards when the American constitution was ammended in 1865 to abolish slavery. The morals and ethics of the younger generation will always clash with those of the elder generation, therefore, there will always be the sentiment that standards are falling and that eventually it will lead to disaster.

But you see, it never has. And it never will.

[laborpilot86]

This thread as taken on a life of it's own.............:jawdrop:

[Ieyasu]

This thread as taken on a life of it's own.............:jawdrop:

It's a good thing. Roll with it.

[isolatedotaku]

Ieyasu deserves a gold star.

EMY, the study just came out, people have been having premariatal sex for about 60 years. The decline doesn't have to do with morals, but with a virtual "fog of war" which shielded the average person from really seeing the world. WWII ended in 1945, and you can say that the USA was the most powerful and respected country until about the end of the Cold War (Late 1980s). Now, that is about 40 years that the US was a major power and had (although less present) the exact same morals as we do now.

A decline in a country in the present day world, IMO, can only occur due to military action (war, invasion, being invaded, etc.) or governmental action. America entered Korea and didn't do too great, America entered Vietnam and didn't do too great again. America is in the Gulf (again) and that isn't pleasing many people. The American government isn't pleasing many people in the US anyway. These things, IMHO, have led to the decline in the American influence world round, not our moral awakenings.

Unless Japan's government gets a wild hair, or they do something wrong with their soon to be unshackled military power, I don't see them collapsing anytime soon. I don't seem them ever, in my lifetime, collapsing because of moral values.

The US has had the Playboy Channel for years and the magazine for longer, we haven't collapsed. Japan's new wave of "naughty" and "inapropriate" shows (and manga, anime and literature) will not cause a collapse. If such things could cause a collapse, Japan would haven't made it past the 18th century. They've had porn for a very long time, don't forget that.

[Erigion]

I'm so moving to Japan.

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

Moral values, maybe not. That massively declining population rate on the other hand...

[Sephiroth-777]

Salem witch trials would have been Christians persecuting other Christians and other than that I agree with you. :)


My bad thanks for the correction.

[kyubichan]

With the power that the media and money has over people nowadays, I understand why that show was allowed though -_- Thank God I was born two decades ago, and with a mind of my own.

*gives Ieyasu a gold star* Chew it up good.

[EMY23-23]

I really do not feel like continuing this arguement and I don't care if I'm proven right or wrong on this forum, so I'll end it here. There's plenty of readings on all sides of all these arguements so posting links or citing anything is really a waste of time. I like to read all different points of views on these types of things and based on what I read I draw my own conclusions. If I cared enough I'd find the titles and authors that wrote about this subject and place them here, but I don't. Debates like these are just too much effort to type up, and can only be done properly in a face to face discussion.

Oh, and as far as the whole Roman Empire thing goes, I strongly suggest reading Edward Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It's the best and most thorough account of the decline of the Roman Empire I have read, and offers multiple theories on how the empire fell, including the moral decline theory.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Randomly: I would like to point out that the average Japanese teen is still infinitely more polite than the average American teen. o: I don't think the country and it's culture should fear spontanious mass existance failure just yet. <.<;; For that matter, I'd be more concerned about the decline of American culture (if it has any to begin with) than Japanese... but that's a whole different topic.

[f1rst children]

Are we done trying to impose our Western, Judeo-Christian-based morality on a culture that was developed absent of those forces yet?

Japan's inconsistent behavior on sex issues is amusing (tentacle rape forever, pubic hair never!), but hardly is going to cause some collapse of Japanese civilization. Kuzu already nailed it - Japanese culture will fade because they don't make Japanese people like they used to, literally.

[KiraraKim]

I certainly don't think Japanese culture and morals are going downhill because of this TV show. I realize that there are a lot of things in Japan other than this show that are morally questionable but a lot of countries have morally questionable entertainment including the US. It is ridiculous to say that this shows the Japanese culture is deteriorating .

However shouting cultural difference is not right either. Cultural relativism can only go so far. We eat with knives and forks, the Japanese eat with chopsticks. That is something we do not judge. However this is something that goes beyond culture and is just wrong plain and simple no matter what culture you are from. Young children should not be sexualized like that. You can say it is just kids being kids but it is put on TV so anyone can watch it. It also shows that it is okay for little girls to give up their underwear to be sniffed by little perverted boys.

In my opinion this TV show should not be judged as a basis of Japanese culture but just as an individual case of something that is immoral.

[AlterGenesis-X]

If we didn't have Japan where would I get my cool gadgets and games?

No, seriously, I think most of us are all rather aware of what the Japanese permit as "regular" TV. Something like this would be considered "standard" would it not? Although, I'm not promoting the fact that such young girls should potraying themselves like this, but an influx of immoral shows is defenitely not going to take down Japan.

[7Raven7]

People need to stop citing Rome as an example of degrading morals bringing a society down. No one knows exactly why Rome fell, but I think we can be pretty damn sure that millitary issues had more to do with it than the social state of it's citizens. Stop coming up with this pseudo-mythical stuff about how the Roman Empire was destroyed because of widespread debauchery.


Ieyasu deserves a gold star.

No, Ieyasu derserves a history lesson. Rome is the perfect example of a phenomenon that has happened since the begging of time and one that continues to do so, just not at always to the same degree.

It is a very simple formula whereby either you can say the morality of a society’s people reflect the leadership or that, because/if leadership is chosen from the people, that the leadership reflects the morality of its people. Either way, there are "good ideas" behind what we would call "morals" and "ethics" that are healthy to a person and healthy to a society. Without these, there are consequences. Also, lacking in morals almost always directly translates to corruption. While this does not always bring the complete destruction to a society, left unchecked it almost always spells some type of disaster.

To say Rome fell due to Military problems is completely asinine and shows a complete lack of understanding since they had, enlisted, more than 3 times the military might of all the rest of the world combined. Everyone talks about Attila the Hun and how he caused the end of Rome, yeah defeated at the Battle of Chalons as soon as Rome decided to finally send their Northern Army at him, just their Northern Army mind you.

Why did Rome fall? Corruption, pure and simple. Everything was decided by their Senate, and as far as any regional problems like Plague or barbarian raids, the Senate would vote on whether to send aid. Due to corruption, the wisest decision was not often the chosen decision. Also, if a region decided to part from Rome for not receiving aid, this too fell to the hands of the military but also first needed to be voted on. Seeing as all the Senators were looking out for their own interests, were taking bribes or otherwise self-absorbed, this kept them away from the Platonian mindset of serving their people, protecting the country and doing their jobs.

Now if you want to look at "disaster" befalling people do to a lack of morals on a more current timeline it is very easy. Look at the US and their culture of greed prior to the Great Depression, the roaring twenties directly lead to ideas like buying on the margin. Notice a correlation? Look at their compliancy with an isolationism, self-serve mindset and how it impacted them prior to WWII and Pearl Harbor.

Hitler and his “ideals” ruined Germany, Stalin’s Russia has not yet recovered. How would you rate Saddam on the moral scale of 1-10 and where is he right now? How does the beliefs and practices regarding sex in Africa contribute to their AIDS epidemic? Morality, or beliefs regarding the right way to live and treat your fellow man are at the very heart and the backbone of any society. You know what we call a government with no morals? Anarchy.

[isolatedotaku]

Raven. If you are going to attack a person's statement and say they need a lesson, make sure your statement is error free.

Re-reading Ieyasu's statement, he never says Rome fell directly because of military issues. He says, "No one knows exactly why Rome fell, but I think we can be pretty damn sure that millitary issues had more to do with it than the social state of it's citizens." I'd say this means that Ieyasu wasn't around when Rome fell, so he can't make a blanket statement like "Rome fell because of only corruption."

Hilter was a key (if not, the key) figure behind the start of WWII, the war is what ruined Germany. Hitler, besides being on drugs and a racist, was one of Germany's best dictators. As they say, "he made the trains run on time." (apparently false)

Lenin (fixed) gained control over Russia in an armed revolution (irrelevant). Sadam led through fear and military force. Africa is in the shit-hole because of Berlin Conference that happened way back before WWI. Morals do not single handly ruin countries, nothing can single handed ruin a country.

*Italic means these points have been proven false to me*

[Tyrdium]

Hitler, besides being on drugs and a racist, was one of Germany's best dictators. As they say, "he made the trains run on time."That reference is attributed to Mussolini, not Hitler. Besides, it's false (http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.htm).

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

Hilter was a key (if not, the key) figure behind the start of WWII, the war is what ruined Germany. Hitler, besides being on drugs and a racist, was one of Germany's best dictators. As they say, "he made the trains run on time."

Hitler was also Germany's ONLY dictator, if you discount Honecker. To say that Hitler was a key figure behind the Second World War, yet absolve him from the destruction of Germany that was a direct consequence of the Second World War is base. Hitler was also experiencing the problems that an armaments based economy causes first hand in 1939 - aka, massive shortages in raw materials, and some economic historians will say that the need to prevent/deflect the internal problems of the German economy was key in Hitler's decision to attack Poland.

Stalin gained control over Russia in an armed revolution.

Dead wrong. Lenin gained control in a popular revolution, then consolidated it via a bloody and horrible civil war. Stalin used the power vacuum caused by Lenin's death to oust his political rivals one by one and seize control of the Politburo.

Africa is in the shit-hole because of Berlin Conference that happened way back before WWI.

Yes and no. Can Africa trace its problems to the Berlin Conference and imperialism in general on one level? Certainly. Can the state of Africa be blamed solely on imperialism, given the parity in wealth and development between North Africa and the nation of South Africa compared to Sub-Saharan Africa, let alone ex-colonies like India, Singapore, Malaysia, and Hong Kong? No. Besides, you also missed his point, since the AIDS epidemic started after the Era of Colonialism had, for the most part, ended.

You've also generally missed the point of Raven's statement "it is a very simple formula whereby either you can say the morality of a society’s people reflect the leadership or that, because/if leadership is chosen from the people, that the leadership reflects the morality of its people" by focusing on what you perceive to be factual errors.

[7Raven7]

I never said morals ran countries but I also am against the statement that morals have nothing to do with a society's well-being. And the statement that Rome fell due to any lacking in military and not its social condition was exactly what I was addressing. You don't have to be there to know that the Holocaust happened and a history book is not just there for show, 9 out of 10 of them will list corruption of some form straight at the top of Rome’s demise. And while the Plague and barbarian raids usually find there way to the top three, the corrupt government is precisely why those problems got out of hand.

The reason this is such a perfect example is take comparisons between the Roman senate and the American senate. Now figure in how important budget can be to get an official elected, mix in the special interest groups that fund said official. See the ensuing conflict of interest when something is proposed if that official needs to choose between what he knows is best for America vs. what his special interest group “paid” him to do. Not saying America is anywhere close to where Rome was, as there are a series of checks and balances in the system, but multiply that little amount of corruption by one thousand in a nation with no natural borders or healthcare system and your get the fall of Rome in a nutshell.

Now I am not with the people who will point to one tiny, seemingly-immoral action produced by a culture and shout "Rome! Rome!" but to deny the lessons of history makes us doomed to repeat it. And Hitler is not the type of person I would back regardless of those who will defend him because he was able to unite his country or because of the power he inspired. He was a cruel racists and calling him insane gives him too much credit and he sacrificed the lives and decency of those who followed him for greed and childish revenge plots.

And if you are for a world where everyone is for themselves and any sense of personal or social decency is up for anyone to interpret then the world is that much more sad and dark because of you. I am not talking about religion or any particular culture over another, but I think as far as keeping a healthy society, ideals such as selflessness, charity, humility and love will always win out over those of selfishness, greed, pride and hate.

[isolatedotaku]

I coincide defeat for my points on the post prior to this. My statement had errors and I acknowledge them.

However, I still have the same opinion on Ieyasu's post.

[Zushio]

For the record, you all completely missed my point (except for Kuzu and Kaio), and I won't bother explaining it because I frankly don't care to explain myself to people who can't see the obvious.

Oh and it somewhat worries me that half the posts here feel like they are in fact defending and upholding the sexual exploitation of children who are not even sexually mature. I know you're anime fans, but could you at least try to avoid the sterotype of the creepy pedophile?

[Pachinko]

Oh and it somewhat worries me that half the posts here feel like they are in fact defending and upholding the sexual exploitation of children who are not even sexually mature. I know you're anime fans, but could you at least try to avoid the sterotype of the creepy pedophile?
Well said. It's simply not good for the kiddies. What if Dora began walking around shirtless or started teaching children how to properly do oral sex? I mean, c'mon!

[f1rst children]

For the record, you all completely missed my point (except for Kuzu and Kaio), and I won't bother explaining it because I frankly don't care to explain myself to people who can't see the obvious.

Oh and it somewhat worries me that half the posts here feel like they are in fact defending and upholding the sexual exploitation of children who are not even sexually mature. I know you're anime fans, but could you at least try to avoid the sterotype of the creepy pedophile?

Pretty much every civilization and country in the world has had an age of consent lower than 18 at some point in their history, including the United States, and it has yet to result in the destruction of any of them. Many nations still have age of consents lower than 18, and they have yet to implode.

Americans, possibly under the influence of the religious right, seem to have no problem in demonizing any country that allows sex under the age of 18 while simultaneously sentencing minors to adult-sized prison terms, up to and including life without parole (currently over 2,000). For some reason there's a dichotomy in society which portrays minors as idiots incapable of choosing paper or plastic when it comes to sexual decisions, yet at the same time views them as fully developed moral beings when they commit a crime. It shouldn't work that way - if the responsibilities of adulthood are placed on you, then the rights of adulthood should accompany them.

Don't forget that just a few days ago a 17 year old "child" in Georgia was sentenced to 10 years in state prison for having consensual oral sex with a 15 year old "child." That dirty 17 year old pedophile!

Some show about underwear isn't nearly as offensive to me as all the anime out there that glorifies rape, and actually has the nerve to suggest that females actually secretly enjoy being raped.

All the Rome talk seems off topic to me, unless someone can find a way to relate sexual practices with political corruption. I remember Kenneth Starr trying that, and falling pretty flat on his face.

[Ieyasu]

Tch

No, Ieyasu derserves a history lesson. Rome is the perfect example of a phenomenon that has happened since the begging of time and one that continues to do so, just not at always to the same degree

Nice get out clause.

It is a very simple formula whereby either you can say the morality of a society’s people reflect the leadership or that, because/if leadership is chosen from the people, that the leadership reflects the morality of its people. Either way, there are "good ideas" behind what we would call "morals" and "ethics" that are healthy to a person and healthy to a society. Without these, there are consequences. Also, lacking in morals almost always directly translates to corruption. While this does not always bring the complete destruction to a society, left unchecked it almost always spells some type of disaster.

Evidence for that formula?

You just can't apply some vague generalisation like "A society's leader will reflect the morality of the people" or "The people will reflect the morality of the leader". Morality is simply too broad a subject.

For example, how many people in the UK do you think agree with Tony Blair's decision to invade Iraq? Especially after it was discovered that the main claim used to support the invasion was later proved to be false. But Tony Blair managed to become re-elected even after being accused of lying, leading his country into an unjust war and being generally trashed left right and centre as an immoral bastard. How do you think that was?

Because, even if the majority of the british public don't agree with aspects of his morality, they do agree with others. It is NEVER as black and white as your forumla makes it out to be.

To say Rome fell due to Military problems is completely asinine and shows a complete lack of understanding since they had, enlisted, more than 3 times the military might of all the rest of the world combined. Everyone talks about Attila the Hun and how he caused the end of Rome, yeah defeated at the Battle of Chalons as soon as Rome decided to finally send their Northern Army at him, just their Northern Army mind you.

Your assertion is uninformed (not to mention needlessly insulting) and your staunch resolution to ignore the possibility of a combination of factors leading to the downfall of the empire only hurts your position. No one is claiming millitary factors were the only cause of the fall of Rome, but I still maintain that it had more to do with it than some sort of exagerated moral collapse ever did.

Society is a complicated thing. Surely you will conceed a multi-faceted theory for the fall of Rome is far more likely than a single factor causing the fall from grace of such a powerful empire?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire#Vegetius

Link to a useful article on the main theories for the collapse of the Roman Empire. Please note, only two of these cite moral decay as so much as a factor in the collapse.

Why did Rome fall? Corruption, pure and simple. Everything was decided by their Senate, and as far as any regional problems like Plague or barbarian raids, the Senate would vote on whether to send aid. Due to corruption, the wisest decision was not often the chosen decision. Also, if a region decided to part from Rome for not receiving aid, this too fell to the hands of the military but also first needed to be voted on. Seeing as all the Senators were looking out for their own interests, were taking bribes or otherwise self-absorbed, this kept them away from the Platonian mindset of serving their people, protecting the country and doing their jobs.

Right, so the economic decline Rome was suffering, the expansion of the German empire, the depopulation of Italy, the dependency on barbarians as infantry in Roman armies, the encroaching of another emerging empire (the Sassanids) on their borders and the Stilicho Treason all had absolutely nothing to do with the fall of the empire, hmm?

Nevermind my statements being asinine, this is just simplistic in the extreme.

Now if you want to look at "disaster" befalling people do to a lack of morals on a more current timeline it is very easy. Look at the US and their culture of greed prior to the Great Depression, the roaring twenties directly lead to ideas like buying on the margin. Notice a correlation? Look at their compliancy with an isolationism, self-serve mindset and how it impacted them prior to WWII and Pearl Harbor.

You just cited the most powerful nation on the planet as an example of how decaying morals leads to the downfall of a society. Sort of shot yourself in the foot there, didn't you?

Hitler and his “ideals” ruined Germany, Stalin’s Russia has not yet recovered. How would you rate Saddam on the moral scale of 1-10 and where is he right now? How does the beliefs and practices regarding sex in Africa contribute to their AIDS epidemic? Morality, or beliefs regarding the right way to live and treat your fellow man are at the very heart and the backbone of any society.

Hitler and his ideals did not cause the fall of Germany, a massive Allied offensive to take the bastard out of power caused the fall of Germany.

Again, Saddam's morals didn't put him where he is now, the actions of others who disagreed with his morals put him where he is now. It's also worth noting that the country is far less stable now than it was under Saddam himself.

The AIDS epidemic is indeed made worse by beliefs and practises in Africa, but this has more to do with obtuse religious scholars in the Vatican than it does the people who are themselves suffering. The Catholic Church obviously believes they are upholding the moral integrity of their church, yet they cause the suffering of so many by their policies. This is more of a case of blind faith leading to the downfall of a country than a decay of morals leading to disaster.

You know what we call a government with no morals? Anarchy

Anarchy is the antithesis of government, not a government without morals. If you want to end with a dramatic statement, at least get it right.

----

I hold with most of what Kuzu said here

---

I never said morals ran countries but I also am against the statement that morals have nothing to do with a society's well-being. And the statement that Rome fell due to any lacking in military and not its social condition was exactly what I was addressing. You don't have to be there to know that the Holocaust happened and a history book is not just there for show, 9 out of 10 of them will list corruption of some form straight at the top of Rome’s demise. And while the Plague and barbarian raids usually find there way to the top three, the corrupt government is precisely why those problems got out of hand.

Well, I'm not going to claim morals have nothing to do with a society's well being. That's just ridiculous.

However, your continued attributing of all of Rome's woes to corruption is ludicrous.

The reason this is such a perfect example is take comparisons between the Roman senate and the American senate. Now figure in how important budget can be to get an official elected, mix in the special interest groups that fund said official. See the ensuing conflict of interest when something is proposed if that official needs to choose between what he knows is best for America vs. what his special interest group “paid” him to do. Not saying America is anywhere close to where Rome was, as there are a series of checks and balances in the system, but multiply that little amount of corruption by one thousand in a nation with no natural borders or healthcare system and your get the fall of Rome in a nutshell.

Again, far too simplistic an explanation. Not to mention you haven't yet produced anything to substantiate these claims of corruption in the Roman Senate.

Now I am not with the people who will point to one tiny, seemingly-immoral action produced by a culture and shout "Rome! Rome!" but to deny the lessons of history makes us doomed to repeat it. And Hitler is not the type of person I would back regardless of those who will defend him because he was able to unite his country or because of the power he inspired. He was a cruel racists and calling him insane gives him too much credit and he sacrificed the lives and decency of those who followed him for greed and childish revenge plots.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there, no one is trying to support Hitler or justify what he did. I can't really see what this little rant has to do with our discussion of whether falling standards of morality can lead to large scale disaster or not.

And if you are for a world where everyone is for themselves and any sense of personal or social decency is up for anyone to interpret then the world is that much more sad and dark because of you. I am not talking about religion or any particular culture over another, but I think as far as keeping a healthy society, ideals such as selflessness, charity, humility and love will always win out over those of selfishness, greed, pride and hate.

Now, this paragraph here is just out and out silly. First off, no one was advocating the sort of world you say that people were, so I think we can disregard the first part, as it doesn't seem to have an actual point.

As for the second. Well duh. Of course selflessness, charity, humility and love are good for a society. What's the point in stating the obvious? Again, it doesn't have anything to do with what we were talking about.

---

For the record, you all completely missed my point (except for Kuzu and Kaio), and I won't bother explaining it because I frankly don't care to explain myself to people who can't see the obvious.

I don't really give two shits if I did or not, I'm having fun debating here.

Oh and it somewhat worries me that half the posts here feel like they are in fact defending and upholding the sexual exploitation of children who are not even sexually mature. I know you're anime fans, but could you at least try to avoid the sterotype of the creepy pedophile?

:proll:

Maybe try reading what people are saying?

[Pedro The Hutt]

I think I'll let Ieyasu do the talking for now. He's doing a pretty good job. =D

(Also, different morals ≠ no morals)

[EMY23-23]

Wow, I am very glad I got out of this "discussion" when I did. The funny thing is, everyone has their own valid points (to an extent) and anything discussed about Japan's current or future social/political situations can be wrong or right. The fact is that anything discussed politically that involves the present and future (the past a lot also) is almost pure speculation. You an provide facts and figures debating either side usually which puts arguements like these into a constant loop. Could Japan eventaully fall because of their declining morals? Possbily. Could Japan eventually rise and become the most powerful and open-mined nation? Possibly. No one can say anything for sure which is why there is absolutely no point attacking each other's points unless they can provide in-arguable evidence supporting their point of view.

I wish I had never brought up the Roman empire example. The text series I mentioned before is considered the best historical account for the fall of the Roman empire and it introduces multiple explanations of why it fell. One thing most historians do agree on though is that it was a combintation of things that eventually lead to its demise.

[KiraraKim]

Morals are not necessarily cultural. In some cultures it is morally okay to stone to death a woman who commits adultery. But maybe we should ignore this because it is not our culture.

Yes I know that is an extreme example but by saying we should not judge other people's cultures you are also saying we should not be judging this either.

[Teengamefan]

I'm not saying we should bomb them but i don't care where you are. That is f'ed up. Come on they are kids they shouldn't be exposed to that. I'd much rather they still watch hello kitty than that. But I don't understand how be can label this okay it's horrid that they could exploit kids like this. I just think this is wrong.

[7Raven7]

Tch....

...Maybe try reading what people are saying?

All together a rather poor rebuttle as you fail to read any of my points including the main one, which, though you quoted, you forgot it's main message. Try taking your own medicine?

Oh and the statement is not an “out,” societies and governments as a whole are a lot more stable today because of the compiling and sharing of information and learning from the past has eliminated some of the age-old pitfalls. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t importance in moral behavior or that it doesn’t have negative, and often seriously negative, consequences when those behaviors aren’t followed.

Again:
"Either way, there are "good ideas" behind what we would call "morals" and "ethics" that are healthy to a person and healthy to a society. Without these, there are consequences. Also, lacking in morals almost always directly translates to corruption. While this does not always bring the complete destruction to a society, left unchecked it almost always spells some type of disaster."

The first part is what we call an introductory statement. Basically, if you take an sample of how a person or persons within a society are acting you cannot draw upon how it effects the way the government is correlated without this statement. That’s why I included it. The last sentence is what we call a thesis, that is the “formula” per se and basically the point.


If you want to hit up on Rome again, then yes, I will stand up and say corruption is why it fell. Would it have fell without corruption at that point? No. The book writers and TV editors will always throw out the “many different factors” clause otherwise it makes for a very short book. Try reading one however and you will note that the problems they talk about became problems and, specifically, society ending problems because of corruption. Try a meta-analysis on one once and you will see a significant amount of any of the content historians write regarding Rome show corruption as the main factor as to why things got out of hand.

I never said it was 100% corruption alone. Or, true, if Rome was set in a perfect world with no problems then regardless of what type of people or government it had it probably would have existed forever. Seeing as there is no perfect world, Rome was set to either face internal and external pressures or perish.

If things like rebellion, outside raids, disease etc always caused the collapse of societies, every society since the beginning of time would have been eliminated and all we would have right now would be unorganized family tribes. Or wait, maybe there is a way to manage problems in society, I think they call that Government. And what is that elusive term that prevents government from acting in the people's best interest and instead look after their own. I believe that is called corruption. And what is selfishness and greed that would cause a politician to pursue their own goals and not their peoples? You guessed it, immoral practices.

The UK example you use is right out as never did I say the decision to invade Iraq was either moral or immoral, don't confuse morals and ethics with politics. Also, regardless of whether popular opinion supports Blair or not is irrelevant. Sometimes it is possible to have to make a moral decision between to things, neither one being more moral or immoral than the next. So I am not the one making it black and white and I don't believe I used a sheet of things listing "here is what is immoral, here is what is moral," so far you are the one making it black and white.

For the time being let me define morality as the combination of right conduct for ones self and ones neighbor, or time tested decisions across cultures that lead to healthy living.

Now if Blair decided tomorrow that from hence forth it was ok to steal, he would be removed from office. Why, because the morality of his people and the power of checks and balances in the system would overrule him. The same would go for if a majority of people within the systems of checks and balances decided it was ok to steal, Blair would be removed from office in favor of a politician that supported their goals. And if Blair was an all powerful dictator to the point where the people could not overcome his decision? He could remove the consequence for people to not steal and stealing would more openly occur.

In regards to my comparison of America and the Great Depression and in WWII I think I was right on. Please read again part of my premise:

"While this does not always bring the complete destruction to a society..."
left unchecked it almost always spells some type of disaster."

I will post it again as you seem to have a problem reading.

"While this does not always bring the complete destruction to a society..."
left unchecked it almost always spells some type of disaster."

Or did you think the Great Depression and Pearl Harbor as an awaking point to America's involvement in WWII were both positive things that in no way could be seen as a disaster? I never said they completely destroyed America. I never said a society could not recover, indeed they should. And America has since put laws against things like buying on the margin to avoid that type of greedy carelessness.

In regards to Hilter, I am sure the Allies all invaded Germany because he was a good, decent lad who didn't practice genocide, attack civilian targets, wage open war with most everyone including his allies and overall was an upstanding and moral citizen and lead his country toward the same. In fact they just decided to pick on him one day for no good reason. Those damned allies, if it weren't for them the world would be just about perfect… and Jewless today. By the way, do you own a swastika? Just curious.

Sadamn's quest for power and money including illegally using funds that were meant for his people's well being to buy weapons, torturing just about everyone, enemy, civilian or ally alike, harboring individuals set on using religious extremism as fuel to cause untold violence in other countries including the targeting of civilians makes him a prime candidate on anyones "just leave him alone and let him be" list. Either way, seeing as you have identified him as (A) an immoral person and (B) he is now sentenced to death and his regime no longer exists I think my previous formula of (A) immorality leads to (B) disaster fits this perfectly. Thanks for helping my argument.

And your absolutely right about Africa, if they did not believe that sleeping with many virgins cured AIDS or if they practiced, on a large scale, monogamy and abstinence, AIDS would be exactly as bad of a problem as it is now.

And yes anarchy is an absence of government but government is built on rules
and the consequences of breaking those rules. But an immoral person is not compelled to follow rules and an immoral leader may be bribed not to enforce them. So therefore, in a society where everyone can do what they want, what would you call it? Certainly not peace and happiness.

I will requote for you what I left off with above and that is "if you are for a world where everyone is for themselves and any sense of personal or social decency is up for anyone to interpret then the world is that much more sad and dark because of you. I am not talking about religion or any particular culture over another, but I think as far as keeping a healthy society, ideals such as selflessness, charity, humility and love will always win out over those of selfishness, greed, pride and hate."

---

Morals are not necessarily cultural. In some cultures it is morally okay to stone to death a woman who commits adultery. But maybe we should ignore this because it is not our culture.

Yes I know that is an extreme example but by saying we should not judge other people's cultures you are also saying we should not be judging this either.

I like this argument because certainly it reflects what a lot of people think when they hear the word “morality” but only part of what you said reflects an actual moral. The fact that the offender is stoned is a punishment, a societal consequence if you will. It is not a moral.

The moral is that there is a correct way to conduct yourself sexually and, without specifically labeling exactly what that is, I think this a universal. The term adultery is also merely a label given by the belief that engaging in sexual conduct with another other than the person you are committed to is incorrect sexual conduct.

The punishment does not have to be stoning and instead, to reinforce that a family is healthier if, at all possible, they stay together a society can simply affirm family values and teach good practices in selecting and being a good partner for which to build this family.

Rape is probably a better example and, with no morals, any man could, whenever he wanted, have sex with any woman with or without her consent. If this sounds like a good idea there is no point in reading further because I completely disagree and no amount of typing will convince you otherwise. Now some cultures would not only kill the rapist but also the rapists entire family. Abuses in determining the consequences of breaking a rule/moral/belief does not mean the moral itself not important.

Or an easy way to say it is, without quibbling about specifics, do you believe there is a healthy way to conduct one’s self sexually?

[KiraraKim]

I like this argument because certainly it reflects what a lot of people think when they hear the word “morality” but only part of what you said reflects an actual moral. The fact that the offender is stoned is a punishment, a societal consequence if you will. It is not a moral.

We are getting off topic here but I disagree a moral is simply what society deems to be right or wrong. In this sense the society is deeming the punishment as just while other societies would deem it wrong or unjust. So I am saying the punishment itself is immoral.

But if you want another example how about female circumcision.

Still the point I was trying to make which I realize you do understand is cultural relativism can only go so far. In my opinion there can and should be certain universal morals (and human rights for that matter).

So getting back to little girls having their underwear sniffed by boys on TV the question doesn't become is this something cultural but is it just morally wrong in general? In my opinion it is morally wrong and that is why I am speaking out against it.

[Ieyasu]

Wellll, lesse...

First off, one of us is getting needlessly techy and bitchy about this whole thing and seems to have a problem keeping their debates civil, and it isn't me.

People are never obliged to debate with you, and if you want people to think your points are even worth contesting, learn some manners. No skin off my nose if you choose to continue being rude, but I don't have to sit here and read it.

---

That being said, you made some good points, even if you were ill-mannered in making them.

I'll conceed the argument.

[laborpilot86]

The moral of all this is that you shouldn't judge cultures based on the crap(which all cultures have), but on the good stuff.

[Erigion]

The moral of all this is that you shouldn't judge cultures based on the crap(which all cultures have), but on the good stuff.
Boy them Nazis sure were good hard working people.

The Southern States sure could produce a lot of cotton and tobacco for the country to consume.

Mao Zedong got rid of those dirty corrupt Nationalists.

This moral sure isn't very useful...

[Raiden]

I think he meant you should just take the rough with the smooth, The japanese are one of the most polite and law abiding people in the world, there vice seems to be preverted shows involving young girls, but do they have any bigger problem with pedophilia than any other nation? I mean can the nations that brought the world female topless boxing (USA) or Benny Hill (UK) really get on their high horse.

[laborpilot86]

This is true. US and British pop culture has it's own skeletons in the closet (Coughs in Howard Stern and Baywatch's direction)

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

So wait, you're comparing a shock DJ and of-age women in bathing suits to sniffing 11 year olds panties?

[laborpilot86]

For the purposes of this discussion, yes


Oh, and I forget to mention Britney Spears and friends:biggun:

[Pedro The Hutt]

Ah yes. XD Britney was once was an underaged sex symbol. (And let's not forget all those people who happily fap over Emma Watson and/or actually have clocks on their sites/blogs counting down to her 18th birthday)

[Pachinko]

Ah yes. XD Britney was once was an underaged sex symbol. (And let's not forget all those people who happily fap over Emma Watson and/or actually have clocks on their sites/blogs counting down to her 18th birthday)
But Emma hasn't done anything to have ever become a sex symbol.

Unless something happened in the 6th book that I don't know about.

[Erigion]

I think he meant you should just take the rough with the smooth, The japanese are one of the most polite and law abiding people in the world, there vice seems to be preverted shows involving young girls, but do they have any bigger problem with pedophilia than any other nation? I mean can the nations that brought the world female topless boxing (USA) or Benny Hill (UK) really get on their high horse.Then he should have said that instead of something with an entirely different meaning.

[Raiden]

Not really laborpilot86 said you concentrate on the Good stuff that a society creates not the bad. Which is what you should do, America isn't attacked for the fact that it has the biggest porn industry in the world, hell I'll even celebrate it; freedom of expression and all that. But a nation shouldn't be attacked for its perversions, isn't the best selling porn in the world the stuff that claims to be underage or at least young looking girls? Every nation has its dirty pants as it were; I choose not watch the perverted Japanese shows just like I choose not to buy used women’s underwear off the net. I’m not going to judge a nation on one section of its society or even its past for that matter, I’ll judge a nation on its achievement and Japan has achieved a lot; they produce the best Motorbikes, Cars, electronics, Animation as well as having some of the lowest crime rates in the world, they also achieve keeping a positive nationalistic stance without being overly aggressive to foreign markets so that products sell well at home and abroad. Now with that being all the good, what’s the bad, oh yes they sexualise young women in a more openly perverted way that the rest of the world; Now Instead of them selling this filth in paper bags in dirty shops in out of the way area with blacked out windows they sell it on news stands and show it on national TV, one embrace the other hides, now which nation has the bigger problem? It aimed at a young audiance but its only as sexual as western show like Hollyoaks in the UK, this one just has a more (in our eyes) perverted edge. Lets not forget most kids play GTA in the west were as in japan the games have never really taken off

[laborpilot86]

Good point Raiden-san on the GTA games.

[Spilled Milk]

So just out of Curiousity...If like other countries had sexual stuff like this with animals, and dead people..would that just be The difference in Cultural morals? I'm just wondering..I like to know these things...

[Pedro The Hutt]

Getting on a high horse are we?
Comparison doesn't add up though, no child gets molested in the program. Instead it seems to be more inclined to poke fun at the thought. It'd be more analogue to a (stand-up) comedian making fun of pedophiles or bestiality, and as far as I'm aware you find those in any and all countries.

Because judging from the trailer, the movie doesn't take itself seriously at all. Honestly, American Pie and it's sequels seem worse for that matter.

[laborpilot86]

This is true Pedro-san

[Azazis]

At least is it isn't Morning musume *shiver*

I've seen worse Japanese shows to be honest =p
And worse shows in other countries too. For example here in holland we had 2 guys in suits paying a crackwhore to shove up a dildo her arse. Only to have a gay dude show of his suckling skill on said dildo later in a club. Hows that for taste? :3 Should Holland get bombed as well now?

[Ieyasu]

At least is it isn't Morning musume *shiver*

I've seen worse Japanese shows to be honest =p
And worse shows in other countries too. For example here in holland we had 2 guys in suits paying a crackwhore to shove up a dildo her arse. Only to have a gay dude show of his suckling skill on said dildo later in a club. Hows that for taste? :3 Should Holland get bombed as well now?

Yes

[NausicaaBoy]

o_0 ....






1 thing more disturbing: Morning Musume- Strawberry Pie

[Pachinko]

o_0 ....






1 thing more disturbing: Morning Musume- Strawberry Pie

='s perhaps the greatest tune of all time.

I jest. I am equally disturbed.

[Azazis]

Morning Musume- Strawberry Pie

Ok. I changed my mind. bomb Japan ;_;

[Pedro The Hutt]

Don't blame them if you're a sucker for punishment. XD

[D.A.]

3 bored elementary school girls take their under pants off and auction them off for "sniffing" parties.

The boys go nuts trying to find out who's under pants are who's...but when one of the girls has their first period, the fun begins.....starring Sweet Kiss

Oh and in case anyone missed it, Sweet Kiss is the band that Saaya Irie is a part of, you know the 11 year old girl with the D-cup breasts?

Yeah, so as much as I love some anime, I say we just bomb Japan.


Seems fine to me. I mean the bombing. But I still wanna watch more animes.

[f1rst children]

So wait, you're comparing a shock DJ and of-age women in bathing suits to sniffing 11 year olds panties?

How about compared to drinking horse semen or inserting a toy car into one's anus?
How about compared to having sex with an apple pie?
How about compared to masturbating an elephant?
How about compared to goatse and *******?
How about compared to biting the head off a live bat on stage?
How about compared to art museum exhibits composed entirely of excrement?

[Lord Dolmus]

I found nothing wrong with it.

[laborpilot86]

I love how the same people who watch La Blue Girl, Legend of the Overfiend and Bible Black (you know who you are), get into a high moral whinging contest about the 'immorality' in Japanese culture.:migrane:

[ash_chan]

I love how the same people who watch La Blue Girl, Legend of the Overfiend and Bible Black (you know who you are), get into a high moral whinging contest about the 'immorality' in Japanese culture.:migrane:


Well, those are animated.
This is a show featuring real people, based off of weird quirks in Japan.

Some people don't like that.

[laborpilot86]

and the differance is........?

[Zushio]

The difference?

Urotsukidoji and Bible Black feature characters that are greater than 13 in age and are actually pornography. This show is not pornography, features sexually immature girls (possibly physically mature, but not mentally), and is just designed to cater to creepy pedophiles, much like it would seem many members of this board are.

Also, laborpilot, if you could possibly contribute something meaningful to the discussion rather than simply posting to say you agree with people, or posting over generalized blanket statements, perhaps we would take you more seriously.

[isolatedotaku]

I love how the same people who watch La Blue Girl, Legend of the Overfiend and Bible Black (you know who you are), get into a high moral whinging contest about the 'immorality' in Japanese culture.:migrane:

I'm one of those people. I watch stuff like Bible Black or Legend of the Overfiend because they are pornography. Pornography is meant to be sexually arousing, just like "The Girl Next Door" or "Sexcetra" (both shows on the PlayBoy Channel) are pornography and meant to be sexually arousing. None of the shows mentioned ever take a 13-year-old out and bang them, nor do they depict children in sexual ways.

This show does, that is your damn difference. This show is meant to appeal to a fetish for little girl's panties.

The basic idea of sexual fetishism is sexual arousal and satisfaction through an inanimate object, the fetish.

Having these little girls promote a fetish is not right, in my honest opinion.

--

I have this feeling that I am going to be called on pancaking, but I'd like to point out that the last time I voiced my opinion about this show I was only comparing it to shows, I believe, are the same caliber on American TV and the fact I didn't think it was necessary to say Japan should be bombed.

[Zushio]

For the record, I also didn't mean literally that Japan should be destroyed, it's a figure of speech.

You know, exaggerating for dramatic effect.

[soundchazer]

Since I haven't seen the entirety of the series/episode/show, there is little to comment about. Maybe they are showing what might be considered "amusing" to hook kids in, and there might be a moral to the story that we don't know about.

But here we are assuming that the girls will eventually sell their panties, grow rich and maybe move on into prostitution WITHOUT HAVING WATCHED THE SHOW.

And for those of you saying "OMG, the Japanese values have deteriorated", all I have to say is that the Japanese have always been historically more, uhmm... liberated when it came to sexuality in general than people on the west, so it is quite understandable that what may be completely horrifying here, might be mild there.

From a personal point of view, I find people who teach their kids how to use a gun or rifle far more criminal than a parent that would permit their kids to watch a show where a girl takes off her panties without any nudity being shown... after all, it is not like they have not seen panties at the department stores or even in their mother's/sisters laundry.

[Tyrdium]

From a personal point of view, I find people who teach their kids how to use a gun or rifle far more criminal than a parent that would permit their kids to watch a show where a girl takes off her panties without any nudity being shown...What's wrong with teaching your kids gun safety? Better they know "this is not a toy" than find one on their own and hurt themselves (or someone else).

[soundchazer]

What's wrong with teaching your kids gun safety? Better they know "this is not a toy" than find one on their own and hurt themselves (or someone else).

Better not have a gun at all. Or keep it in a safe. I think more often than not kids who think they know how to handle it end up being the ones involved in accidents.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Urotsukidoji and Bible Black feature characters that are greater than 13 in age and are actually pornography. This show is not pornography, features sexually immature girls (possibly physically mature, but not mentally), and is just designed to cater to creepy pedophiles, much like it would seem many members of this board are.

What part of satire goes beyond you? =D Considering it can be seen from miles that that show/movie/whatever doesn't take itself in the least bit serious.

[D.A.]

Hmm... I sold my panties too. What's the big deal?

[LadyYuina]

Their tastes in the enjoyment factor is really different from ours...

I wouldn't bomb Japan for that... hell, some of their games are so bizzare that they will never land a single foot on US soil, or the UK even.

[f1rst children]

Their tastes in the enjoyment factor is really different from ours...

I wouldn't bomb Japan for that... hell, some of their games are so bizzare that they will never land a single foot on US soil, or the UK even.


Anyone who does anything less than me sexually is a prude.
Anyone who does anything more is a pervert.

Anyone who has different tastes than me is morally undeveloped, and those that would defend the rights of people to have different tastes do so only because they themselves have deviant tastes also.

I "doth protest too much"? What does that mean?

In other news, which of the following works features characters under the age of 18 having sex?

A) Bible Black
B) Romeo & Juliet


... that dirty pedophile Bard!

[PuriPuriPurin]

pedophilia in Japanese subculture ...how shocking,how surprising -_-

[ant]

My take on Japan, destroy all the gaijin haters, which would be 60 percent of the population, :P

[Milkymagic]

Finally viewed the trailer, I think it's shocking given what our country allows, but I agree that it's probably viewed differently over there. The whole world's enough to desensitize me personally, so it comes as no surprise I would just accept it and move on. Not like I've seen my share of crazed serial killers, crazed occults, and nude beaches to start screaming over it.

Not that I'm saying I'd watch it, I sure wouldn't like to, but rather I'll leave them to their own devices. Still, it was certainly uncomfortable to witness the first time, but I'm already over it.

[Pedro The Hutt]

My take on Japan, destroy all the gaijin haters, which would be 60 percent of the population, :P

Got any back-up for that claim? =D

[Cereal_Killer]

Hey, I did the exact same thing when I was an 11 year old girl. Didn't everyone?

[LadyYuina]

My take on Japan, destroy all the gaijin haters, which would be 60 percent of the population, :P

How 'bout we destroy all the Japanese haters, as well... percentage-wise as to how many haters there are, I have no freakin' clue... :bews:

[IceDemon]

I don't like the whole Japanese commmunity ideal. Their corporations are run the same way although its becoming more U.S. based. Its all about whats best for the company and the people. Individual talent and merit isn't recognized over age and histroy with the company. So people who are better can't advance as rapidly. The whole comformity ideal is annoying too. I like to be able to pick what i wear to school and what not. Having a dress code, how long my hair has to be, etc. would drive me nuts. I feel like they aren't allowed full freedom of choice, which i couldn't live without. I think LadyYuina agrees with me here as she has a sentance below her post saying we should choose our life and live it. Freedom of choice, the ability to strive for something is exactly what keeps humanity advancing forward. Having your life decided by fate/destiny would be horrible. Where's the point in living if you don't make any decision for yourself? Sounds horrible but thats the truth laid out in plain english. Of course its not that strict in Japan but the possibility is frightening.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Take note that Japan is technologically ahead of the rest of us in many aspects, so I'd reckon they're doing just fine.

[f1rst children]

I don't like the whole Japanese commmunity ideal. Their corporations are run the same way although its becoming more U.S. based. Its all about whats best for the company and the people. Individual talent and merit isn't recognized over age and histroy with the company. So people who are better can't advance as rapidly. The whole comformity ideal is annoying too.

The US, and much of the West, never had the kind of strict social hierarchy that existed in Japan for centuries. That kind of cultural mindset doesn't just go away overnight. Look at how Russia repeatedly slides towards authoritarianism, whether it's from Putin, Stalin, or some long-dead Tsar.

Plus, the philosophies that molded the East and the West are vastly different. Western civilization has glorified rebellion and individualism almost since inception. You have Adam & Eve rebelling against God in the Garden of Eden, Zeus rebelling against his father Cronos, Moses rebelling against his Pharoah brother Ramses, Jesus rebelling against Judaism, etc. - all the way to present times. Mixed in there you'll find everyone from Martin Luther to Copernicus to Columbus to George Washington, Malcolm X, and Fonzie. Heck, even those who argue for submitting to authority, like Hobbes, portray it as a necessary evil. Now contrast that to Confucianism, with its demands of loyalty, filial piety, and codified cultural norms.

In the corporate world, the door swings both ways. That same emphasis on seniority also means that the company won't lay you off and outsource your job to India. It isn't just workers that have obligations to management, management has obligations to workers as well. In Japan CEOs take pay cuts to keep their employees from being laid off - compare that to an American system that lays off thousands of workers while CEOs retire with multi-million dollar pensions.

In the end, everyone ends up conforming to something. Look at how many American kids rebel against their parents. Is that all a result of personal individualism, or are they buying into the Western history of rebellion being "cool"? After all, how non-conformist can rebellion be if everyone else is doing it too?

[IceDemon]

In the end, everyone ends up conforming to something. Look at how many American kids rebel against their parents. Is that all a result of personal individualism, or are they buying into the Western history of rebellion being "cool"? After all, how non-conformist can rebellion be if everyone else is doing it too?[/QUOTE]

Kids rebelling against their parents is not becuase they are buying into Western History. They just want more responsibility and choice on how to lead their lives. Not everyone rebels either many Americans do comform to standards. Americans comform to laws, society's standards, etc.

When talking about the corporate world, yes jobs get outsourced for the betterment of the company overall. The company would tank due to intense competition if they didn't have layoffs and outscourcing. Having CEOs take pay cuts might save a few people but overall if the company fails, what then? Capitalism has been working the best over all the other economic polices the past 300 years if not more. The reason is becuase free trade between nations leads to betterment for everyone overall. Of course certain people will be harmed to a degree but compared to the gains those people are trivial.

The advancement of the world has been mainly due to individuals who were free to chose their own path in life and make their own decisions. Take that away and have everyone conform what is left other than an unfulfilling life where u have to do this in this exact way. Freedom is esential to life becuase without freedom people have nothing to strive for.

[Mana]

Spoken like a true capitalist pig :X

Outsourcing is not for the betterment of the company, it's for the greediness of the company.

[Ieyasu]

Spoken like a true capitalist pig :X

Outsourcing is not for the betterment of the company, it's for the greediness of the company.

What, you'd prefer we were all commuinst? Look how well that worked out.

Seriously, people are not altruistic by nature. People will always act for the benefit of themselves and those close to them over the common good. Not to mention that with communism, there is no longer any incentive to excell because everyone gets the same anyway, so society stagnates.

Bottom line, communism is a nice idea, but in practise, humans don't really give two ****s about the greater good of society.

[Mana]

Of, of course not. Neither true capitalism or true communism is the answer. The goal is to find the right balance of capitalism and socialism. Even America does have some socialism with the way Police/Fire departments work. Parts of Europe take it a bit further and offer socialized education and/or medicine.

[Roark]

In the end, everyone ends up conforming to something. Look at how many American kids rebel against their parents. Is that all a result of personal individualism, or are they buying into the Western history of rebellion being "cool"? After all, how non-conformist can rebellion be if everyone else is doing it too?

Kids rebelling against their parents is not becuase they are buying into Western History. They just want more responsibility and choice on how to lead their lives. Not everyone rebels either many Americans do comform to standards. Americans comform to laws, society's standards, etc.

When talking about the corporate world, yes jobs get outsourced for the betterment of the company overall. The company would tank due to intense competition if they didn't have layoffs and outscourcing. Having CEOs take pay cuts might save a few people but overall if the company fails, what then? Capitalism has been working the best over all the other economic polices the past 300 years if not more. The reason is becuase free trade between nations leads to betterment for everyone overall. Of course certain people will be harmed to a degree but compared to the gains those people are trivial.

The advancement of the world has been mainly due to individuals who were free to chose their own path in life and make their own decisions. Take that away and have everyone conform what is left other than an unfulfilling life where u have to do this in this exact way. Freedom is esential to life becuase without freedom people have nothing to strive for.
This post wins the Ayn Rand Seal of Approval.
http://www.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com/images/ayn_seal_of_approval_button.jpg

Now, to the issue at hand, "to rebel" in this sense isn't an action; rather, it's a meta-action attached to a series of observable actions. Very few people wake up and think "I'm going to rebel today." That's just not how it happens. Rather, people undertake courses of action that they deem reasonable, or that their peers deem resanoable, regardless of the value judgements from prior generations. Calling this "rebelling" puts the decision too strongly; it's more an apathy to partental consent than an active "F U!"

Now, the whole "everyone conforms" bit is equally derranged. If having similar tastes, attitudes, and beliefs is conforming, then you'd be hard pressed to find a freethinker anywhere in history. Rather, individuals come to ideas and conclusions through various means. That the endpoint is the same should not be taken as evidence of conformity, but rather as mere coincidence that two people agree/enjoy similar things. Unless you think the whole concept of agrement necessitates conformity.

Individual actors contribute ideas, inspiration, and unique talents in large projects. I can't think of a single discovery that wasn't a "shoulder of giants" discovery. Even "lone geniuses" work from established principles. This should not discount their ability, motivation or drive - far from it. But, in the real world, ideas are actualized in teams of cooperating individuals, not small isolated mad science laboratories.

[f1rst children]

Kids rebelling against their parents is not becuase they are buying into Western History. They just want more responsibility and choice on how to lead their lives. Not everyone rebels either many Americans do comform to standards. Americans comform to laws, society's standards, etc.

American teenagers may not be rebelling as a conscious effort to conform to Western norms, but it definitely plays a role. Heck, the entire idea that teenagers are supposed to want "independence" is a largely Western phenomena. Japanese teenagers live with their parents much longer than American teens on the whole - in fact, many stay at home well into their 20s or until marriage. At the other end of the spectrum, Japanese are also more likely to take care of their elders instead of sticking them into a nursing home.

When talking about the corporate world, yes jobs get outsourced for the betterment of the company overall. The company would tank due to intense competition if they didn't have layoffs and outscourcing. Having CEOs take pay cuts might save a few people but overall if the company fails, what then? Capitalism has been working the best over all the other economic polices the past 300 years if not more. The reason is becuase free trade between nations leads to betterment for everyone overall. Of course certain people will be harmed to a degree but compared to the gains those people are trivial.

So your argument for capitalism is that bad stuff happening to a few individuals is justified because it benefits the greater population?

And here I thought you were arguing against the subjugation of the individual in favor of the larger communal good.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe some employers think having happy or content workers might actually more economically beneficial than having discontented, lower paid workers? I mean, if a worker views himself as part of a corporate "family," they might work harder and be more productive than someone like me who spends working hours posting on Internet message boards.

"It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime; so where's the motivation? And here's something else, Bob: I have eight different bosses right now... So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired."

- Peter Gibbons, Office Space

[IceDemon]

Thanks Roark for the seal of approval. lol. Mana im not a capitalist pig as you say, i was just arguing my point. Read on.

American teenagers may not be rebelling as a conscious effort to conform to Western norms, but it definitely plays a role. Heck, the entire idea that teenagers are supposed to want "independence" is a largely Western phenomena. Japanese teenagers live with their parents much longer than American teens on the whole - in fact, many stay at home well into their 20s or until marriage. At the other end of the spectrum, Japanese are also more likely to take care of their elders instead of sticking them into a nursing home.[/i]

Japanese teenagers may live with their parents into their 20s or until marriage however that keeps them from becoming independent sooner. American children by becoming independent sooner achieve more faster. Americans may stick parents into nursing homes but thats a very small amount. Currently only 28.5% of people 65 years and older of the US population are in nursing homes, 18.2% are 85 years and older, this data was taken from the US Census Bureau. Therefore the numbers are accurate. Considering that Americas population is larger than Japans by 174 million people. The data comes from the US Census Bureau and Japans Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communication. Therefore numbers are accurate again. Therefore the 28.5% is actually very small.


So your argument for capitalism is that bad stuff happening to a few individuals is justified because it benefits the greater population?[/i]

No, my arguement for Capitalism is that it is succesful in the world out of all the other economic policies instituted and that most advances made humankind was becuase people were free to do as they pleased and didn't have to conform to strict standards.


And here I thought you were arguing against the subjugation of the individual in favor of the larger communal good.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe some employers think having happy or content workers might actually more economically beneficial than having discontented, lower paid workers? I mean, if a worker views himself as part of a corporate "family," they might work harder and be more productive than someone like me who spends working hours posting on Internet message boards.[/i]

I am arguing for the individual person to be free to chose their life. The communal good should be upheld over one person if it mean the destruction of society however that doesn't mean that individuals cannot follow their own path in life when society is not threatend. WWII for example, individuals were conscripted for the safety of society however after the war in times of peace people were free to live their lives as they wanted.


"It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime; so where's the motivation? And here's something else, Bob: I have eight different bosses right now... So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired."

- Peter Gibbons, Office Space

People will not strive unless they see some kind of compensation, i agree to that. However people will strive in general when they chose their own life path becuase they want to achieve what their aiming for. Peter Gibbons is an example of someone who made the wrong choice in his career. Someone who loves what they do and having chosen that field will strive to do the best they can becuase it brings them satisfaction.

[f1rst children]

Japanese teenagers may live with their parents into their 20s or until marriage however that keeps them from becoming independent sooner. American children by becoming independent sooner achieve more faster. Americans may stick parents into nursing homes but thats a very small amount.

The point I was making is that there is more of an obligation for children to take care of their parents in old age in Japan than there is in the US. Stashing them in a home is only one example, but for the most part Americans expect seniors to provide for their retirement years on their own, or with the help of government - Social Security, Medicare, etc. Confucianism says that it's your responsibility as a child to take care of your parents.

No, my arguement for Capitalism is that it is succesful in the world out of all the other economic policies instituted and that most advances made humankind was becuase people were free to do as they pleased and didn't have to conform to strict standards.

Actually, Scandanavian European countries have a very high standard of living, and they are quite socialist. The UN's Human Development Index is pretty much topped by Norway every year, although Canada and Japan have both ranked #1 multiple times.

Besides which, Japan can be even more capitalist than the US at times. In the 1980s and early 90s there was all manner of wailing by US businesses that the Japanese were predatory capitalists with unfair trade practices. Even recently the US steel industry begged Bush to put up a steel tariff to stop Japan from annihilating the steel industry the way they did American electronics and are currently doing to the auto industry. I don't see any evidence that Japan's emphasis on cultural norms is somehow hampering the Japanese economy. If anything, many problems are caused by capitalists like banks and corporations outright buying members of government.

I am arguing for the individual person to be free to chose their life. The communal good should be upheld over one person if it mean the destruction of society however that doesn't mean that individuals cannot follow their own path in life when society is not threatend.

Outsourcing is the upholding of the communal corporate good over individual workers. And it's often done at times where it isn't necessary for the survival of the company, but so that some executive can have diamonds encrusted onto his golden parachute.

And not everyone is going to love their job. Not many people grow up dreaming of being middle managers or data entry clerks, but someone has to do it - we simply don't have enough openings for cowboys and ballerinas and rock stars. And those someones might work a little harder if they felt management had their back, instead of simply waiting to stick a knife in it.

These cultural norms aren't simply a bunch of arbitrary restrictions imposed by whim. They're obligations that go both ways, and hopefully contribute to a decent society.

We have obligations in the West, too. Things like the Golden Rule: "Treat others how you want to be treated," not "Do whatever you feel like to people in the name of freedom." If I wanted I could go out on the street and call everyone I see an a--hole. Have I exercised my freedom? Sure. Have I contributed in any way to a good or decent society? Not really. Having the right to do something doesn't mean it's right to do it.

[IceDemon]

We have obligations in the West, too. Things like the Golden Rule: "Treat others how you want to be treated," not "Do whatever you feel like to people in the name of freedom." If I wanted I could go out on the street and call everyone I see an a--hole. Have I exercised my freedom? Sure. Have I contributed in any way to a good or decent society? Not really. Having the right to do something doesn't mean it's right to do it.

I agree with you but my meaning of freedom is that we have the rights to do so and these rights are what keeps us happy. And we also belive in "Treat others how you want to be treated" becuase it benefits society overall. Im arguing that conformity helps to stagnate freedom to a degree not completely.

[Roark]

And we also belive in "Treat others how you want to be treated" becuase it benefits society overall.

I'd argue that we believe this because people attributed it to a radical Jewish man who went and got himself killed by the Romans. It's been a domniant western aphorism for years, as shown by Immanual Kant's categorigal imperative.

[Ieyasu]

Roark! Stop confusing us with your magical philosophy!

T_T

[f1rst children]

I agree with you but my meaning of freedom is that we have the rights to do so and these rights are what keeps us happy. And we also belive in "Treat others how you want to be treated" becuase it benefits society overall. Im arguing that conformity helps to stagnate freedom to a degree not completely.

Japanese people are just as free to not conform to the majority as Americans if they want to. I don't see too much concern with stagnating freedom in Japan - in fact, that's probably more of a concern in the US.

Do a larger portion of Japanese view conforming to social norms as beneficial than Americans? I don't know. But even if they do, there's probably a good reason for it. Japanese aren't Americans, they're the result of years of different philosophies and experiences. America was never influenced by Confucianism or Neo-Confucianism, with its strict hierarchies and duties of relationship. US society wasn't centered around small, almost tribal, villages (American Indians were, but they're hardly reflective of US society today). In these small villages, if one person didn't do their job farming or fishing, it might lead to the death of the whole village.

[IceDemon]

Do a larger portion of Japanese view conforming to social norms as beneficial than Americans? I don't know. But even if they do, there's probably a good reason for it. Japanese aren't Americans, they're the result of years of different philosophies and experiences. America was never influenced by Confucianism or Neo-Confucianism, with its strict hierarchies and duties of relationship. US society wasn't centered around small, almost tribal, villages (American Indians were, but they're hardly reflective of US society today). In these small villages, if one person didn't do their job farming or fishing, it might lead to the death of the whole village.

I agree with you that the conformity ideology is becuase of the Japanese history and to answer your question, yes a larger portion of Japanese see conformity as a good thing but that view is slowely changing as well with the newer generations.

[d23]

You mean you need an excuse to destroy the Japanese civilisation?

[IceDemon]

You mean you need an excuse to destroy the Japanese civilisation?

Is this question referring to the title of the thread or what instead? If u mean the title of the thread i think you need a reason since the manga and anime comes from Japan and without Japan the manga and anime is gone, which would cause a real problem.

[Akito]

Manga and anime? That's the first thing you think of?

I know this is an anime forum, but come on!

[IceDemon]

Manga and anime? That's the first thing you think of?

I know this is an anime forum, but come on!

Of course it is the first thing i think of unless you want to talk about business but I was tyring to keep it on topic considering it is an Anime and Manga forum.