Anybody here interesting Japanese History?

[laborpilot86]

As a big history buff (It was my B.A in undergrad), Japan has always been one of my favorite places, besides Britian and the Middle East, to read about.

This is also one of the reasons I got interested in anime

Does anybody here pass the time (other than anime, obviously) reading up on the ins and outs of old and modern Japan

btw, if anybody has a question about any historical minitiuae or referance that comes up in any anime, just pm and I'll answer your puzzlement

I meant to say 'Interested in Japanese History'


:help:

[kyubichan]

I researched Japan's history while I was in highschool because some Japanese guests were coming to our school ^^ Very interesting background, I must say. I envy their independence. I also love Kaidan, thus my nick.

[Demon_Killer]

Though I'm interested in Japanese history, I have not look any thing up lately, but ancient China has really caught my eye. I just recently read about the four gods.

[zarahf]

interested...yes...knowledgeable....no
I did take a people and cultures of Asia class once. As you can imagine it only scratched the surface. But I did write a very long paper on the rise and fall of feudalism in China ...I think. Or was that for Economic Anthropology.....NO I think in was in the peoples and cultures class. As you can imagine it too only scratched the surface.

[loner]

Though I'm interested in Japanese history, I have not look any thing up lately, but ancient China has really caught my eye. I just recently read about the four gods.

Eh, it's good that Fushigi Yuugi got you interested in Chinese history, but um, it's not really a very accurate representation of China. The "four gods" I think you are referring to, which probably were worshipped somewhere by some Chinese at some time (since we worship everything from the Heaven to the Earth to Frederick Townsend Ward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Townsend_Ward), were never prominent. In fact, if you mention "four gods" to an average Chinese person, they'll think you mean them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Guardian_Gods).

I'm currently taking a course on medieval Japan, which is a great class. It'll break a lot of people's myths about the "honorable" samurai during that period.

interested...yes...knowledgeable....no
I did take a people and cultures of Asia class once. As you can imagine it only scratched the surface. But I did write a very long paper on the rise and fall of feudalism in China ...I think. Or was that for Economic Anthropology.....NO I think in was in the peoples and cultures class. As you can imagine it too only scratched the surface.

Ok, I'm really sorry about this, but I couldn't resist: by rise and fall of "feudalism in China", which part of Chinese history are you referring to? Most contemporary historians agree that actual feudalist period in Chinese history ended after around the founding of the Qin dynasty. But you can certainly put up a good debate about that.

[Demon_Killer]

[QUOTE=loner;527689]Eh, it's good that Fushigi Yuugi got you interested in Chinese history, but um, it's not really a very accurate representation of China. The "four gods" I think you are referring to, which probably were worshipped somewhere by some Chinese at some time (since we worship everything from the Heaven to the Earth to Frederick Townsend Ward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Townsend_Ward), were never prominent. In fact, if you mention "four gods" to an average Chinese person, they'll think you mean them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Guardian_Gods).

No not really I have always taken a liken to the history of China. But after I watched Fushigi Yugi I was curious if The four gods were real and I looked It up and got this. O thanks for the information.

The story of the Four Gods of Heaven and Earth, the Shi Jin Ten Chi Sho, is not something that was made up for Fushigi Yuugi by Watase Yuu. The myth of the Four Gods has been deeply rooted in ancient Chinese mythology. The following are exerpts from Derek Walters' "An Encyclopedia of Myth and Legend: Chinese Mythology" and Donald A. Mackenzie's "Myths of China and Japan."

THIS IS A DIFFERENT SITE:
The Four Gods are the central figures of an ancient Chinese system of astrology and geomancy which was imported to Japan and absorbed into Onmyoudou mysticism (among other beliefs). In this system, there were 28 "star houses" (constellations) which ran the circumference of the sky. The heavenly king divided the sky into the northern, southern, eastern, and western quadrants, each with 7 star houses; each quadrant was ruled by a god beast.

[loner]

Heh, you're welcome. Chinese mythology/religion(s) is a very rich field, and the Chinese pantheon is well, enormous. Like I said, everything from the Heaven, the Earth, mountains, rivers and other natural features/phenomenon, to ancestors, famous sages, great people in history, to even the spirit of everyday objects like your kitchen sink, may be worshipped by some Chinese somewhere. It's good that you are interested in this field, because there's definitely not enough research in this field, Chinese, Western or whatever.

Your second source is a very accurate and concise description of the 28 constellations. This is incorporated into religious Daoism, like many other popular myths/religions. The protective beasts themselves are not that prominent in Chinese culture though, and like I said, most Chinese will be thinking about something completely different if you mention Four Gods.

If you are interested in Chinese religions, I recommend the book Chinese Religions by Prof. Julia Ching. It gives a good overview of the development of different religions in China, and how they integrated themselves into Chinese culture.

[Demon_Killer]

Heh, you're welcome. Chinese mythology/religion(s) is a very rich field, and the Chinese pantheon is well, enormous. Like I said, everything from the Heaven, the Earth, mountains, rivers and other natural features/phenomenon, to ancestors, famous sages, great people in history, to even the spirit of everyday objects like your kitchen sink, may be worshipped by some Chinese somewhere. It's good that you are interested in this field, because there's definitely not enough research in this field, Chinese, Western or whatever.

Your second source is a very accurate and concise description of the 28 constellations. This is incorporated into religious Daoism, like many other popular myths/religions. The protective beasts themselves are not that prominent in Chinese culture though, and like I said, most Chinese will be thinking about something completely different if you mention Four Gods.

If you are interested in Chinese religions, I recommend the book Chinese Religions by Prof. Julia Ching. It gives a good overview of the development of different religions in China, and how they integrated themselves into Chinese culture.

Your pretty darn smart, I would like to major in something but not sure what.Any recommendation? Im really interest In the old China,do you know any books.

[zarahf]

Ok, I'm really sorry about this, but I couldn't resist: by rise and fall of "feudalism in China", which part of Chinese history are you referring to? Most contemporary historians agree that actual feudalist period in Chinese history ended after around the founding of the Qin dynasty. But you can certainly put up a good debate about that.

I seem to remember it was an assigned topic. And no I probably couldn't present a very accurate debate at this point; not unless I have a copy of the paper somewhere. However, considering that Anthro is the study of culture and generally focuses on ancient cultures this time period sounds about right. I honestly don't remember. But I am not too embarrassed to say one of the few things I really do remember from the experience of writing that paper was feeling really really overwhelmed by the time frame I was supposed to be covering. I think as a citizen of a very young country we Americans have a hard time grasping history on such a scale. Example: I also was to write a paper for the same class on pottery. In the end I had to change the subject (which I had chosen thinking it would be easy) because there was no way to cover the breath of the subject in anything less than a book. I simply didn't understand what would be involved in researching a subject over thousands and thousand of years. So, feel free to argue as you might but there you have it.

Edit:In really really small letters because I hate to admit it, cause it will make my post seem untrustworthy, but in the spirit of full disclosure, on further reflection, it MAY have been Japan. We are, after all, talking about a paper I wrote in 1997. Doesn't matter much now, feudalism still existed, the frame was still vast, paper was still written and writer was still overwhelmed by it. Have at me if you will.

[loner]

Lol, no, you just stirred up my curiosity since the idea of "feudalism" in Chinese history is a very heavily debated topic, and you said you wrote a very long paper about it. But heh, I have no right to force you to discuss a topic you don't want to discuss.

Demon_Killer, I'm a history major with concentration either on East Asian history or religious history (or a cross of both). So I should know at least that much. I think that before you go into anything in detail, like a subject such as the Four Guardian Beasts of the 28 constellations, it's better to develop a general, comprehensive understanding of Chinese history as a whole so you can put things in a solid framework. Stuff like which dynasty came after which may seem tedious, but you can't really understand anything if that's not knocked into your head. So I suppose Fairbank's China: A New History would be a good place to start. I'm not a big fan of Fairbank's approach, but he gets the facts right, and good for general knowledge. And of course, Wikipedia is always your friend.

And uh, sorry for all the off-topic stuff >_> Just to turn this back to topic, here's the "textbook" I'm using for my medieval Japan class: The World Turned Upside Down: Medieval Japanese Society by Pierre Francois Souyri. It's a very comprehensive guide to what medieval Japan was like. For deeper stuff, I recommend Mary Elizabeth Berry's the Culture of Civil War in Kyoto and Hideyoshi. Those were some of the better readings that was assigned for my class.

[Demon_Killer]

Thanks loner

[kyubichan]

The story of the Four Gods of Heaven and Earth, the Shi Jin Ten Chi Sho, is not something that was made up for Fushigi Yuugi by Watase Yuu.

True. Because they are also in YuYu Hakusho, which was made before Fushigi Yugi. Another anime that features them is Digimon Tamers. And, like loner said, they are more aptly referred to as the Four Guardian Beasts ^^ I think they guard the pillars of heaven, or something.

[Demon_Killer]

True. Because they are also in YuYu Hakusho, which was made before Fushigi Yugi. Another anime that features them is Digimon Tamers. And, like loner said, they are more aptly referred to as the Four Guardian Beasts ^^ I think they guard the pillars of heaven, or something.

In the Buddhist faith, the Four Heavenly Kings are four guardian gods, each of whom watches over one cardinal direction of the world.
Vaiśravaṇa-North
Virūḍhaka-South
Dhṛtarāṣṭra- East
Virūpākṣa-West
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Guardian_Gods

[loner]

Yes, but as I said before those four guardian gods are different from the four beasts in Fushigi Yuugi (don't remember much about YYH and never seen Digimon Tamers, so don't know about the four gods in those anime). The Four Heavenly Kings originated from India and have nothing to do with constellations, nor are they ever represented by animal motif except one's weapon I believe.

[laborpilot86]

I highly recommend any book by Stephen Turnbull on the Samurai, plus the Heike Monagatari, if you can find a good translation:graduate: . Turnbull's books, as well as breaking down Samurai tactics and culture, also get into the whole myth/reality thing with the Samurai

[kyubichan]

@Demon_Killer

loner proves I know my anime XD

YYH ==> In the anime, the Four Saint Beasts, the ones that unleash MaKai insects upon NingenKai.

Digimon Tamers ==> They guard over the DigiWorld, and created the digimon Calumon as a physical form of Digimon energy.

* OMG! I sound like an otaku!!! Nooooo.... *

[Pedro The Hutt]

You could just as well read Kenshin if you want some quick pointers about the Meiji era. XD And the Bakumatsu.

Or at least, it serves as an introduction. The rest can be learned via reeeesearch. Tokugawa Ieyasu demands that you research him!

[Teengamefan]

To be honest I lost a lot of respect for Japan looking up their history. Mainly because of The Nanking Massacre. If you don't know why Japan and China don't get along well it shows they have history. If you want a summary of it look it up on wikipedia. The big reason I don't like it is Japan called it a minor conflict. But my 6th grade writing teacher was right all powerful country's were built on blood.

[Pedro The Hutt]

On the other hand you shouldn't lose respect for it's people because of what it's military leaders did (and said).

[Teengamefan]

No I'm mad that they try to cover that part of history up. Especially saying it was a minor conflict that it what makes me mad at the current day people.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Other countries do it, including the USA, going to hate them too? o:
I by no means approve of it, but I don't see it as a reason to do something as drastic as hating them for it.

[Teengamefan]

In fact I do hate country's that cover this kind of thing up saying little or nothing happened.

[kyubichan]

You should read up about my country then. And think to yourself... "OMG, she has more reasons to hate Japan more than I do, but she doesn't?" XD Unless, of course, if you live in PH as well.

[loner]

"Japan" and "current day people" are generalizing terms. Heian courtiers and Oda Nobunaga have nothing to do with the Nanjing Massacre. Nor do the majority of Japanese living today, except for a few extreme nationalists who are actively trying cover this part of history up. I absolutely condemn them for trying to cover up their war atrocities, but that doesn't mean you should denounce everything that is Japanese.

I lose respect for individuals, not countries and races.

And anyways, disliking what some Japanese have done in the past has nothing to do with studying Japanese history. In fact, we must study and understand the motives behind the Sino-Japanese War and events such as the Nanjing Massacre and what their consequences were in order to make sure brutalities of such will never happen again.

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

I don't know, to me, the history of Japan is essentially one failure masked as a success after another.

The success of repelling the Mongol invasions resulting in the failure of daimyo/shogun clan politics.
The success of Tokugawa resulting in the failure of isolationism.
The success of Meiji resulting in the failure of a political system that allowed the military to seize power.
The success of the post-US occupation revival/democratization resulting in the failure of a system that has had one ruling party for 60 years (give or take three months) and is mired in an economic slump.

[Teengamefan]

A pity that kind of thing happens isn't it Kuzu. But since most of the people that were in the massacre are dead I'll bring up a current issue. Racism is legal in Japan some stores only accept Japanese and personally I think that's wrong too.

[kyubichan]

I don't think that's wrong. It's their country, and honestly, I personally would want that in our country considering foreigners actually get more 'respect' here from establishments than locals do >_< I would be against public humiliation and physical harm though. But as for "Japanese only", I think that's fine.

[Teengamefan]

It really depends on how you look at it. I hate how you disagree with someone and they say oh your just a racist extremely annoying. But I like to think we are all equal and no race is superior but people can be.

[laborpilot86]

Hey teengamefan, there are just as many Japanese who dislike the crap that went on during the '20s-'40s and who despise the ultra-nationalists of today. The problem with Japan now is that the ultra-nationalists are trying to 're-write' history by editing the school textbooks to but a positive spin on what Japan did, and that Japan, unlike Germany, has been silent when asked to offer an apology for their actions during WWII. The Japanese will never offer an apology because that would mean admitting an error of monumental porportions, and the Japanese will never admit to that kind of mistake, especially with regards to China and Korea.

On the other hand, Japan has apologized and offered compensation to some victims of the Imperial war machine, especially the 'comfort women' and some ex-allied POWs, but even this caused howls of protest from the ultra-nationalists. Japan will always be ambivenlt about thier role in the 20th century

To get a taste of this ambevlience, check out Ghost in the Shell:SAC 2nd Gig, Patlabor 2 movie and Zipang, all of which deal with Japan's history and sometimes negative role in the world.

[f1rst children]

I don't think that's wrong. It's their country, and honestly, I personally would want that in our country considering foreigners actually get more 'respect' here from establishments than locals do >_< I would be against public humiliation and physical harm though. But as for "Japanese only", I think that's fine.

So legal segregation according to nationality doesn't count as "public humiliation" to you? Not only that, but it's not even wrong? I guess Jim Crow laws would probably be okay too, as long as the storekeeper saying "No coloreds allowed" speaks in a soft, polite tone. Sorry, but "Japanese Only" is an ignorant load of xenophobic crap.

The Japanese will never offer an apology because that would mean admitting an error of monumental porportions, and the Japanese will never admit to that kind of mistake, especially with regards to China and Korea.

On the other hand, Japan has apologized and offered compensation to some victims of the Imperial war machine, especially the 'comfort women' and some ex-allied POWs, but even this caused howls of protest from the ultra-nationalists. Japan will always be ambivenlt about thier role in the 20th century

Yet the longer it takes for Japan to acknowledge their actions in WWII, the more bitter the other countries will become. And considering the waning influence of Japan compared to the rising power of China and the Koreas, it might be better for Japan to just swallow their pride now before more maniacs start lobbing more "missile tests" over Tokyo.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Racism is legal in Japan some stores only accept Japanese and personally I think that's wrong too.
You should visit France sometime. =D Many restaurants and the likes will NOT serve you unless you do it in french. At least the japanese have the decency of putting up warning signs. (Now that I think about it, this probably goes for many countries, that you won't get served lest you do it in their native tongue, doesn't mean they all approve of racism though, but at least the japanese let you know that the people inside do NOT speak english or whatever your native tongue is)

Plus, fending off non-Japanese customers isn't necessarily equal to promoting racism. It's not like a japanese citizen can get away with oh, mugging or killing a foreigner as a racist act. >.>;; So ease off, relax, learn to appreciate Japan for what it is, it's flaws included. If you're looking for a country to like that has NO flaws anywhere in it's past or present, well, you might have to start looking off-planet for that.

[loner]

And I still don't get what any of this has to do with interest in studying Japanese history. Just because a country do some bad stuff, doesn't make studying its history or liking its merchandise bad or anything.

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

Heh, spoken like a true Chinaman. We've massacred more people than Japan has on their island. The only difference was that they were our own people, so no one cared.

[ant]

Not that I have been barred from any establishments in Japan but the people who think its okay because its their country are full of shit. Sorry to tell you guys but you have not been here, or been here long enough to say its ok or its not ok.

Now speaking of rewriting history the more I hear about Abe and his educational reforms the more I think of him as a fanatical patriot. Rewriting history books and asking high school students to take test to see how much they love Japan is full of crap. Japan is trying slowly to open up, i think it desperatly wants to, but I think it will take a long ass time before it gets to be where other industrialized countries are at (as far as foreign relations go ). But they are getting better, just as women's right's are better now then they were 50 years ago.

[madpierrot]

Yeah the idea of them passing a law to teach "patriotism" in schools I find a bit odd. It seemed like it had a decent amount of support, but I'm wondering how exactly you teach it and should you really have to, but oh well.

Also can't say I've ever had any problems with people not letting me into their places. Perhaps I've just been in areas where foreigners are more common so people are more use to them, but I've never had a problem like that. I almost never get handed tissues in the street which sucks, but I guess there's worse things then not getting tissues, haha.

And since this thread is suppose to be about Japanese history, I am interested in it and the culture in general. I find Buddism and Shinto to be very interesting and I love the art and gardens. I'm not very knowledgable about it's history, but I try and know a little bit about it especially if I'm sightseeing for the day b/c I like to know about the places I'm going.

[f1rst children]

You should visit France sometime. =D Many restaurants and the likes will NOT serve you unless you do it in french. At least the japanese have the decency of putting up warning signs. (Now that I think about it, this probably goes for many countries, that you won't get served lest you do it in their native tongue, doesn't mean they all approve of racism though, but at least the japanese let you know that the people inside do NOT speak english or whatever your native tongue is)

Plus, fending off non-Japanese customers isn't necessarily equal to promoting racism. It's not like a japanese citizen can get away with oh, mugging or killing a foreigner as a racist act. >.>;; So ease off, relax, learn to appreciate Japan for what it is, it's flaws included. If you're looking for a country to like that has NO flaws anywhere in it's past or present, well, you might have to start looking off-planet for that.

Technically it's not racist because Japanese isn't a race, and neither is French.

There is, however, no difference in the prinicple behind a sign that says "Japanese only" and one that says "Whites only," except that one is based on race and the other on nationality. And there's a big difference between a waiter not speaking a foreign language and thus not being able to take a foreigner's order and a store policy that says "We only serve people of X race/regligion/ethnicity/gender/etc."

You can appreciate the virtues of another country without endorsing, minimizing, or outright ignoring its faults. For someone to say, "That kind of behavior is beneath me, but perfectly understandable and acceptable for those people" is condescending, patronizing, and morally dishonest.

[kyubichan]

I hate how you disagree with someone and they say oh your just a racist extremely annoying.

Very annoying indeed.

So legal segregation according to nationality doesn't count as "public humiliation" to you? Not only that, but it's not even wrong?

What's humiliating is being in your own country, having as much money as the foreign on the next table, coming there BEFORE the foreigner on the next table, and being served LATER than the foreigner on the next table. Come be me, and you'll understand.