Does God exist? [Archive] - Anime Academy Lounge

soundchazer

10-17-2006, 10:12 PM

Hmmm... Another annoying, headache-inducing philosophy discussion? Sure, I'm in... I believe its kinda impossible to find out if a God actually exists or not... But, a short question: "Which is worse: an eternity of non-existence or an eternity of absolute regret? "

Well... that dichotomy would only exist if the concept of heaven was not introduced, ad since the ideaof heaven or a paradise exists in almost every religion, it makes your question moot, or at least inaccurate, since it only presents 2 choices instead of three:

a) Non-Existence
b) Absolute regret
c) Absolute rejoice

I take a more pragmatic approach. Whatever happens, happens. I will try my best to be a good person and that will leave the bases covered to whatever comes next.

7Raven7

10-17-2006, 11:38 PM

I'll wait until more people speak up on this thread so I can piss off as many people as possible in one post...

kyubichan

10-18-2006, 12:45 AM

I'm not so sure about God and Jesus, and the whole Biblical philosophy stuff... but I believe someone created us. I don't believe in the Big Bang theory. I believe someone is there when you cry, and emotions are not just chemical reactions in your body.

Ojisan

10-18-2006, 01:33 AM

I take a more pragmatic approach. Whatever happens, happens. I will try my best to be a good person and that will leave the bases covered to whatever comes next.

From the good catholic boy, that sounds a little noncommittal.

I'll go ahead and humour this question despite it's periodic reoccurence, since most opinions change.

I despise nearly all organized religions, most of them based on factless, absurd books obviously compiled from ancient mindsets. The amount of fallacies, contradictions and heinous teachings in such books leaves me to question the sanity of many devotes. The Bible, the text which I am most versed in, contains a God in which I could never believe as my just creator. But since this is a thread on the existance of a non-specific God and not the Christian God, I will leave my strongest dislike of the Christian God in the fact his intentions were to have a world where only Christianity could get one to heaven, despite knowing his vague, scant evidence and regional basis would lead two thirds of the world damned. Another issue I find ridiculous with some major religions is its purported open interpretability. Most people I find just shift and alter their texts to their liking, and censure those others who disagree. An example being gay Christians. I have read all arguments, and it seems the Bible CLEARLY states its dissaproval of homosexuality, but no, the topic will always be denied and refuted by gays while conservatives and fundamentalists will always stick by what their hateful book says. As much as I abhor fundamentalists, what are all of the others followers of any religion? They think their sacred book is flawed in the areas they dislike? That their twisted interpretations are better than the plainly taken "word of God"? I find it greatly hinders the whole institute's credibililty to accept so many different views.

But away from religion and to God. I firmly believe in the existance of some higher being and very much want to. I cannot nor do I try to prove this "factually", but can provide my observations and speculation as to why. One being the intricacy and relationships of our lives. I simply do not want to believe that all of our conscious thought, our emotions and our lives can be for nought. I fear in the thought of simply blinking out of existance, though I do recognize this as the most probable case. Can this intricacy be explained by chemical reactions and biology? Of course, but as with all science, it can only be explained to the fundamentals, but the fundamentals themselves have no reasoning. An example being the rainbow of light. Science can identify what frequencies produce which colors of the spectrum, but in some alternative universe, could not this percieved color scheme be reversed and still provide a functioning world? Our red having the properties of purple, etc.? It's this, and the initial fact that energy or matter of any form existed, that I base my firmest beliefs in something starting the ball rolling.

However, that logic only leads one to question what started God. And it's becasue of this I find the reason or doctrine of God vastly beyond any human comprehension. To try to understand it through old books that all carry basic humanistic, transitive ideas is not a fruitful ambition of mine, so I must simply settle for, "I don't know and quite possibly never will."

ZalorD

10-18-2006, 02:11 AM

god, is like, superbooze, which exists in the minds of those who believe in it. i happen to be rooming with a few mormons right now, so god keeps evading me. i have to drive to my friends house just to get part of god out of his fridge

Tremolo

10-18-2006, 03:10 AM

I believe God is riding atop mighty dragons in Valhalla.

soundchazer

10-18-2006, 05:17 AM

From the good catholic boy, that sounds a little noncommittal.

Well... the reality is that we don't really know what comes next. So either you have a leap of faith and decide to believe on somthing or not. The thing is that organized religions are not necessarily as evil as Ojisan makes them appear when you take them a general moral guideline more than a verbatim handbook. And I also believe in religion as a personal choice more than a tool to pass judgement of others. It just so happens that I like Catholicism as my own guideline, but that doesn't mean I see it as the end all be all or one stop shop by which other people should use, because in the very essence, most religions go back to very essential and universally accepted codes of conduct.

So even if there is no heaven, trying to guide yourself on the basis of a solid moral structure won't harm you, right?

Roark

10-18-2006, 05:32 AM

I simply do not want to believe that all of our conscious thought, our emotions and our lives can be for nought.

I never quite got this sentiment. Why would the non-existence of an afterlife make a lick of difference to the value of your life? Is it because said thoughts/emotions/etc. cease their activity at time of death? What's so different about "dying and nothing else" and "dying and immortal soul goes somewhere else?" Same difference, really. Unless you add something in about meeting up again in the afterlife, which doesn't seem likely, given how large it is.

soundchazer

10-18-2006, 05:52 AM

I never quite got this sentiment. Why would the non-existence of an afterlife make a lick of difference to the value of your life? Is it because said thoughts/emotions/etc. cease their activity at time of death? What's so different about "dying and nothing else" and "dying and immortal soul goes somewhere else?" Same difference, really. Unless you add something in about meeting up again in the afterlife, which doesn't seem likely, given how large it is.

Even if afterlife is not a reality, people can still put meaning to their lives by their deeds and the way they relate to other people, which is why I'm not too fond about those who only live "a life of prayer."

Mana

10-18-2006, 06:01 AM

Agnostic here, which is a fancy way of saying "I don't know, and I don't really care." Religion and the God concept have always sat ill in my stomach, ever since I was a little child, but I learned early to make people happy by learning prayers and giving bullshit answers to religious questions, instead of bothering to think about them. Now that I don't live with my family anymore, it's just not something I have to think about much anymore.

I do think there are some good things about religion though. I know when my grandfather died, my grandmother spent a lot of time in the church and praying. Whether God was actually there listening to her was beside the point; just the act of prayer made her feel better and helped my grandmother to cope. Religion can be a good crutch to help you if you don't have anyone else to help you up. Of course there are some bad things about religion as well, but mostly it depends on the person who practices, and not the relgion itself.

We've had previous God/Religion threads before here, and sooner or later, they always start turning nasty. Everyone, please try to behave yourself. This will, indeed, be closely watched.

Dark Lord

10-18-2006, 06:42 AM

Just remember, "Memento Mori" (my personal motto)... Which is just a fancy way of reminding people that life is finite... It basically just tells us to life our life to the fullest, whether you're an atheist or a catholic or just a hedonist... My point is... Do we really know what comes after death? Will we merely fade into nothingness? Or will a "God" actually guide us to salvation, that is, assuming we were all good little boys and girls?

Tune in next time for the next installment... and CUT!!!

C0MPL3X

10-18-2006, 07:11 AM

I'm agnostic but still do wonder whether there is a god/afterlife or not. I believe in an intelligent designer, I just don't believe if it's the same god described by the church.

People ask themselves 'Does god really exist? Will I really go to hell if I don't love and repent like the church says?'. I think infinitely better question is, 'Do I agree with the church's message?'
I think forcing yourself to believe in god because you fear that you might go to hell is being a coward. From what I hear, hell is not an eternity of torture like in Dante's inferno, it's just a place removed from god's presence. If you can live without god in real life, you can live without god in after life. If you can't live without having a collection of 5 sport cars, sleep with different women every night, etc. wouldn't heaven be a more unpleasant place to stay? Wouldn't hell, the place where you are removed from teachings of god, more pleasant to stay? So I say, don't watse your time questioning the existence of god (you'll never know anyway, or like many people, you can find god everywhere), just question whether you want to follow the church's teachings, and make the decision for yourself what to do in real life.
*I might be informed bit incorrectly concerning this, someone familiar with it may like to make a point :/

jetfire

10-18-2006, 07:45 AM

I'm pretty much with soundchazer on this one. My beliefs, are that "whatever happens, happens", and that I'll try to be as good as I can throughout my life, but don't expect me to be wasting every Sunday of mine to go to a church to pray for a God which may not even exist. I think it's just a waste of time and life. I'm sure that if there is a God, that he/she would want us to live our lives to the fullest, instead of sitting in a boring, stuffy building all day, doing nothing but worshipping him/her. That would get pretty boring after awhile. Imagine watching a movie, or playing Sim City, and somewhere through your watching/playing session, the characters all stop what they're doing to bow down and worship you for a lenghtly period of time. Anyways, my point is, that I believe that there is a God, but you don't have to waste your life praying. In fact, I think that God created us to actually set out and do things and to make progress with our lives.

Plus, I don't believe that many sins will send you to hell, such as sex before marraige (especially if you end up with that person anyways), masterbation, lying, etc...(forgive me if I'm wrong with a few elements here. I don't read the bible, but I do recall hearing some sins that are far fetched). I basically believe that if you're an overall good person (you don't kill anyone, or hurt anyone in a severe way, such as rape or stealing their life savings), you'll go to heaven. Everyone lies, everyone masterbates, a lot of people have sex before marraige, etc...Therefore, if all of these sins did apply, which could send people to hell, then I think about 95% of the world's population is damned.

Anyways, in a nutshell, my belief is that there probably is a God, that I'll just be a good, overall person and won't go out of my way to earn brownie points to get into heaven. If God's a reasonable entity, he/she/it will let me into heaven. And if there isn't a God, I'll just accept what lies beyond life (whether it be reincarnation, or eternal blackness).

kyubichan

10-18-2006, 10:58 AM

Plus, I don't believe that many sins will send you to hell, such as sex before marraige (especially if you end up with that person anyways), masterbation, lying, etc...(forgive me if I'm wrong with a few elements here. I don't read the bible, but I do recall hearing some sins that are far fetched). I basically believe that if you're an overall good person (you don't kill anyone, or hurt anyone in a severe way, such as rape or stealing their life savings), you'll go to heaven.

I agree with you there. I think most of the so-called "sins" are more of social standards. I believe a person only sins when he/she takes advantage of another person.

Roark

10-18-2006, 11:09 AM

I agree with you there. I think most of the so-called "sins" are more of social standards. I believe a person only sins when he/she takes advantage of another person.
You forget the rather large category of sins associated with failing to "reck-o-nawz" the big man in the sky.

soundchazer

10-18-2006, 11:10 AM

I agree with you there. I think most of the so-called "sins" are more of social standards. I believe a person only sins when he/she takes advantage of another person.

I would go one step further and say that more that social standards, a lot of them were aimed at securing the position of the religion against other groups and as a mean of self preservation.

Let me exemplify: The condemnation of contraceptives, masturbation and coitus interruptus all stem from the Genesis, in the passage where Onan decided to have coitus interruptus to keep his brother's widowed wife from having a child, that would be considered his brother's by tradition. Aparently it was thought that God condemned the act of "splitting the seed upon the ground".

Looking at that from a more pragmatic (and perhaps cynical) approach, the main reason to condemn this type of act is to keep people from making a decision on getting their spouses pregnant or not. Why? Because religions gain strength in numbers. The more people adhered to your religion, the better its chances for survival. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to condemn these practices to keep couples procreating.

Shahar

10-18-2006, 11:11 AM

A friend of mine told me (about Christianity, in general) that he subscribes to only one thought on this subject.
"The only thing factual about the Bible, is that Jesus died. The rest, we take on faith."
Now if you think about that, and apply it to your knowledge of Christianity, it does make a sort of sense.
Here's another thought though. If God exists, and he reads these post's, shouldn't most of us be cinder's by now?:mad:

So Panic.

10-18-2006, 01:16 PM

I believe in a God.

I'm not sure what my concrete beliefs are as far as moral values and sins go. I believe God, or whomever, is a forgiveful person who helps us in our everyday lives. I guess that's pretty vague huh? Well... it's just religon.

Grasshopper

10-18-2006, 01:38 PM

I was raised Catholic so believing in God just came naturally. I never questioned the fact that God was in heaven. It actually wasn't until recently that I've been thinking about whether or not God really does exist. I do believe in a God though. This is mostly because I was brought up that way and it's what I've been taught to believe.

Ojisan

10-18-2006, 02:38 PM

The thing is that organized religions are not necessarily as evil as Ojisan makes them appear when you take them a general moral guideline more than a verbatim handbook.

This is exactly where I find weakness in them. To take them as general moral guidelines is the only reasonable approach to religion nowadays, but this stance inherently professes some reluctance or dislike to believe in it as a whole. Therefore, which parts are worthy as "guidlines" and which parts are not worthy to be considered? It all comes down to personal preference and morals that form religions to what the person wants it to be, and where's the divine authority in that? Also, when saying other religions are still viable, it's like noting that none of them are truly God's word, but instead just a pool of moral guidelines one can pick and choose from.

because in the very essence, most religions go back to very essential and universally accepted codes of conduct.

And this is why I am so humanitarian; all religions go back to essential, universal, codes of conducts developed by society, and with the good of man in mind. So instead of subscribing myself to an old religious code that is product of man's natural ethics, I would much rather just retain my own positive ethics and use external influences and experiences to shape them into what I find a good human, rather than having someone else decide what a good human is for me.

So even if there is no heaven, trying to guide yourself on the basis of a solid moral structure won't harm you, right?

Right, but again, I don't find religions the only moral structures to which to adhere, and in fact believe I am capable of finding my own way of being a moral person within today's society that doesn't rely on ancient texts.

I never quite got this sentiment. Why would the non-existence of an afterlife make a lick of difference to the value of your life? Is it because said thoughts/emotions/etc. cease their activity at time of death? What's so different about "dying and nothing else" and "dying and immortal soul goes somewhere else?" Same difference, really. Unless you add something in about meeting up again in the afterlife, which doesn't seem likely, given how large it is.

Because I'm not concerned about my non-existance. I hate to think all of those that I loved no longer existance in any form. It's that warm and fuzzy thought that those special people are "still with me", in more than just their instilled values and memories. Regardless, even if I knew there was no afterlife, I would believe in being a good person, however hope in an afterlife provides subtle justification. It's also a matter of why. I can't find it reasonable that our complexity is just a matter totally explainable by science. I just like to believe there is more to us than that.

Barrelhaven

10-18-2006, 02:55 PM

I despise nearly all organized religions, most of them based on factless, absurd books obviously compiled from ancient mindsets. The amount of fallacies, contradictions and heinous teachings in such books leaves me to question the sanity of many devotes. The Bible, the text which I am most versed in, contains a God in which I could never believe as my just creator. But since this is a thread on the existance of a non-specific God and not the Christian God, I will leave my strongest dislike of the Christian God in the fact his intentions were to have a world where only Christianity could get one to heaven, despite knowing his vague, scant evidence and regional basis would lead two thirds of the world damned. Another issue I find ridiculous with some major religions is its purported open interpretability. Most people I find just shift and alter their texts to their liking, and censure those others who disagree. An example being gay Christians. I have read all arguments, and it seems the Bible CLEARLY states its dissaproval of homosexuality, but no, the topic will always be denied and refuted by gays while conservatives and fundamentalists will always stick by what their hateful book says. As much as I abhor fundamentalists, what are all of the others followers of any religion? They think their sacred book is flawed in the areas they dislike? That their twisted interpretations are better than the plainly taken "word of God"? I find it greatly hinders the whole institute's credibililty to accept so many different views.

That's an awesome rant, which I happen to fully agree with.

...but onto the subject of "God's existence", there have been alot of wacky philosophers back in the day that tried to prove it through reason alone. Some of their arguments, while pretty valid, can seem abit unsound.

Who was the one that came up with the "pocket watch" idea? I'm pretty sure it was Paley, but I could be wrong. Anyway, his argument (which is called the argument from design) goes something like this: Anything that has design, or order, must have a designer or orderer. The universe is very orderly, and well-designed. Therefore, the universe must have a designer (God). I think it sounds pretty bogus, though.

Descartes also tried proving the existence of God in one of his famous Meditations. His argument was that every effect must have a cause. In the case of ideas, an idea must have a cause that has at least as much "actual reality" (the real term he uses eludes me right now) as the effect has "objective reality" or something like that. My memory of Descartes is fuzzy. Moving right along, we obviously have an idea of an all-powerful, omnipotent, infinite God, however we are far from all-powerful, omnipotent, and infinite ourselves. Therefore, the idea of such a being could not have originated from us (because we don't have as much reality as that idea or something). Someone must have gave us those ideas, because we obviously have them, and this "someone" must be God himself, since he has as much "reality" as that idea.

There's abunch of other philosophers (Aquinas, Hume, Anselm, etc) who tried to prove God's existence as well, but I neither remember enough to explain coherently nor have the energy to look it up. More interesting, I think, are the philosophers who actually argue from the side of the atheist (skeptic). They tend to make more convincing arguments, IMO.

Panwolf

10-18-2006, 03:01 PM

I believe in faith.

We don't know for sure if God exists. We don't know for sure if the creation theory is true, or if evolution is true.

But we have faith.

We do not know what lies beyond death, so we must just live our lives day to day and be prepared for when it finally happens. We don't know when it will come, or where we go afterwards.

There might be a God, there might not be. There are plenty of things to believe in, and right now, I'm not sure if I believe in God or not.

But I believe in faith in the future.

loner

10-18-2006, 03:14 PM

I am really interested in religions. I am really interested in the question of the existence of God or gods. I don't necessarily believe in any one of them. In truth I don't know how to describe myself. I guess maybe weak agnostic, but really, I hate putting tags on myself. I love studying religions and might make this my profession. But because I study religion quite a bit, it is hard for me to surrender my faith to any religion.

I don't find any of the major religions in the world inherently evil, detestable or corruptive, though I do make exceptions to certain uh "dark cults" with doctrines that say, preach that murdering people is a jolly good thing to do. As (I think) someone has already pointed out, most religions are very openly interpretive. Differnt people will subscribe different amount of faith (not a very good way to put it, but words fail me right now) to a religious doctrine and follow it to different degrees. That is dependent upon different people's spiritual needs. Therefore, a person may only follow the religious rules loosely and practice a few of the rituals, while another person might devote every aspect of his life to every detail stated in the scripture/holy document/whatever. That is very much their choice in how they want to conduct their lives, and it's not really anybody else's business. I do find problem with people who try to force their religions upon others. I don't find any problem with a person going to another person and try to convert that person to Christianity, as long as the preacher doesn't start assaulting the other person. Preaching is very much like stating an opinion. If you just state your opinion to another person, say "I think homosexuality is wrong because my God says so," and respect the other person's opinion when he disagrees with that statement, then there is no problem. But when you start attacking the other person with jihads or Inquisitions, that's when there is trouble. Unfortunately, some people do follow the latter course of action, and that saddens me, because they not only do great harm to the world, but also give their religions a bad name.

Linuts

10-18-2006, 04:45 PM

Disclaimer: The following message has been brought to you by "Pulled out of my own a$$".

I am definitly not a religious person. I have attended church till I was around 7, and even then I went only because my Mother (catholic) dragged me there. I have been told to be very spiritual, but that doesn't really mean much to me. However, like everyone that is self-aware, I have thought of the existence and meaning of "God" with what little I know of other religions and the forces the run our world.

A god in any religion has been idolized as the guiding hand of life. The one that gives purpose to what seems to be a meaningless existence. While recent discoveries have proved that religion has many faults, humans may not have come this far without it. The thought that there is always someone to live for no matter how lost you are can be a great motivator to stay alive.

Regardless of one's religious background, everyone wants to exist. We all have goals that we want to achieve while we are alive, whether that be to mate, to become a world leader, or just to find the reason to live. But to obtain those goals, we must continue to live in order to do so. We exist to exist. Even animals and plants evolve to continue existing as a species. I also believe that we humans developed self-awareness simply to give us more goals to exist. All of us have this common will to exist.

I do not see God as some white beared old man in the sky, or a horny old man who strikes lightning bolts and turn into animals to rape women. I believe that "God" is the sum of our (existence's) wills. It is the collective of wills to exist. And as our ideas about the meaning of life change, this "God" will also change (We are as Gods!:D).

Confused?

I know I am.

Total bullsh!t?

Most probably...

All I really want is to just live the life I have to the best of my ability.

rockroc

10-18-2006, 04:53 PM

I myself, a firm beleiver in God, and have felt the power of God, I take the Bible seriously, and follow it by its words if i commit any sin that is even the most significantly related to the Ten Commandmets, I pray and ask forgiveness.

Dark Lord

10-18-2006, 08:37 PM

Anyone ever heard of the ontological argument of God's existence? I read this from a philosophy book I was reading... I don't quite get it... I says that God exists because God, being a perfect being, must exist because of the fact that a being that exists is more perfect than a being that doesn't exist... It just doesn't feel right to me... I just don't think existence is a requirement for perfection... It's all in the idea...

GWS923

10-18-2006, 09:24 PM

loner

10-19-2006, 12:48 AM

I can't believe this hasn't become a shouting match. I'm impressed at the restraint of this often (or perhaps formerly) explosive community.

I only want to say one small thing regarding the old argument:
"Well if I believe in God and I'm wrong, nothing happens, if you don't believe and you're wrong, you're going to hell."

Perhaps, but if you're wrong, you've based at least some part of your moral structure on falsifications that were written by men nearly 2000 years ago, men who you've never met, men who, for all intents and purposes, could be anyone in the entire world. You're going to take advice from a man who could be anyone at all?

I find that statement to be completely stupid. You can't force yourself to believe something, and even if you do, it wouldn't mean anything anyways. You can't "believe" something you don't actually believe in just out of convenience. I could answer that if your motive of believing in God is just that in case this God does exist, you don't have to go to hell, I'm sure God wouldn't be very pleased with that and will send you to hell anyways. You can pretend to be a Christian in an extremist Christian society to save your ass, because other human beings can be fooled. However, you can't pretend to believe in God just to get on God's good side, since God is by definition omnipotent and you can't fool him. If you don't believe in him, he'll know you don't believe in him. So what's the point?

Ninja Realist

10-19-2006, 04:40 AM

Roark

10-19-2006, 05:21 AM

I think that pretty much everyone is the God of their own perceived reality. Because we all arbit our own perceptions of what is and isn't. And those perceptions are essentially our reality.

So I am God, you are God, even my cat is God.
Go, Idealism! Perceptual based reality and coherent theories of truth!

I would argue that we really don't have much choice in our perceptions. Being autonomic responses, their completely reactive in nature, picking up the widest possible range of perception and feeding it to us, at various levels. That the id-level may not acknowledge full perceptual experiences (and can't, lest it be overwhelmed), this doesn't somehow create a pereptual-mediated reality. It just limits the amount of information that we have to consciously process at once. Remember, that itself is variable, based on needs.

Dark Lord

10-19-2006, 05:34 AM

I don't think we have much control over our own perceptions... However, everyone has their own unique reality based on many different perceptions... And through these perceptions we can manage to respond accordingly... We can freely choose how to respond to our perceptions... I think it is this way that we can also serve as a "God" due to the fact that we control our choices and decisions in life...

GWS923

10-19-2006, 07:24 AM

I find that statement to be completely stupid. You can't force yourself to believe something, and even if you do, it wouldn't mean anything anyways. You can't "believe" something you don't actually believe in just out of convenience. I could answer that if your motive of believing in God is just that in case this God does exist, you don't have to go to hell, I'm sure God wouldn't be very pleased with that and will send you to hell anyways. You can pretend to be a Christian in an extremist Christian society to save your ass, because other human beings can be fooled. However, you can't pretend to believe in God just to get on God's good side, since God is by definition omnipotent and you can't fool him. If you don't believe in him, he'll know you don't believe in him. So what's the point?

But people make the argument all the time. They're not saying that they believe in God because they don't want to go to hell, they're simply pointing out that if they're wrong, nothing bad is going to happen to them, whereas if I'm wrong, something will. All I'm saying is that both believers and non-believers could be wrong, but believers like to pretend there are no consequences if it is, in fact, they who are mistaken, and that's just not true. Don't tell me I'm stupid for showing the example, tell the people who actually think it makes sense.

Ojisan

10-19-2006, 08:47 AM

Don't tell me I'm stupid for showing the example, tell the people who actually think it makes sense.

That's what he was doing.

soundchazer

10-19-2006, 09:10 AM

Don't tell me I'm stupid for showing the example, tell the people who actually think it makes sense.

Here is where a lot of people fall into a very common pitfall. Loner said "I find that statement to be completely stupid." Please not that this is not the same as saying "GWS's comment is stupid."

See the difference? No wonder people get offended so easily, they cannot even make the distinction between discussion of ideas and personal attacks.

Ieyasu

10-19-2006, 10:06 AM

A nice little quotation for those who like to think they can hedge their bets.

The Quirmian philosopher Ventre put forward the suggestion that "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it's all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn't then you've lost nothing, right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said "We're going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts..."

I personally can't conceive that any religion I've ever come across has any basis in the divine.

Contradictions, downright stupid oversights, whole religions which seem hell bent on resisting every human compulsion know to man, harmful or not.

I actually know of one christian man who stated, with great pride:

"If I ever find I am enjoying myself, I stop immediately and read the Bible,"

It's this sort of mentality I find permeates most religion. If it feels good, you shouldn't be doing it. Just look around you, you only have to look at the world to see that humans weren't supposed to be whipping themselves up into a self righteous, self destructive frenzy of zeal and shame.

If there is a God, it seems obvious to me that he wouldn't have the ego to demand we worship him, nor the cruelty to condem us to eternal suffering if we don't. It's just petulant.

Religion is a fancy name for telling us we really need to get ourselves a Guilt Complex.

jetfire

10-19-2006, 10:31 AM

If there is a God, it seems obvious to me that he wouldn't have the ego to demand we worship him, nor the cruelty to condem us to eternal suffering if we don't. It's just petulant.

That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to convey. Spending a few hours in church each day is not a free ticket to heaven. If it was so, then God would be no different than some egotistical king that throws his subjects in the dungeon for not bowing to him.

loner

10-19-2006, 10:34 AM

Here is where a lot of people fall into a very common pitfall. Loner said "I find that statement to be completely stupid." Please not that this is not the same as saying "GWS's comment is stupid."

See the difference? No wonder people get offended so easily, they cannot even make the distinction between discussion of ideas and personal attacks.

Yeah, that's what I meant...I said the statement is stupid not you. Maybe I should've just quoted that statement, but I'm lazy >_> So yeah, thanks Oji and SC.

And Realist, you should read Zhuangzi. You'll love him.

Ninja Realist

10-19-2006, 11:54 AM

And Realist, you should read Zhuangzi. You'll love him.

I haven't read the entire Zhuangzi, but I do base a lot of my life views of of his teachings.

I basically agree with you Ieyasu, but I think the supposition of the more pleasure denying sects, such as the most zealous Southern Baptists, is that you should derive some sort of masochistic pleasure or feeling of accomplishment by abstaining from drugs, sex, or anything else that normal people find enjoyable. As for eternal suffering, it's been said allready in this thread, but the terrifiying descriptions of hell that are given to people by Christian Mythologists are more likely metaphors for the horrifying reality that is a realm without God (which is what many Theologians believe that Hell actually is.)

So it may seem like a bummer from the outside looking in, but I doubt the people who actually live these apparently unhappy lifestyles see them as such.

isolatedotaku

10-19-2006, 07:06 PM

My father, who was born and raised Catholic, said this to me once: "There is only one true way to prove the existance of God. We must find intelligent life on another planet. These intelligent life-forms must then believe that X created the everything in the universe and that Y, his son, died for those life-forms sins..." I, born Catholic but raised with no religious belief forced upon myself by my parents, agree with him.

On top of that, I feel the questioning of someone else's faith to be pointless. Whether you believe that God is the divine creature and Jesus is his son, or that Allah is the one god and Muhammad is his profit, or that a divine chicken layed an egg from which big-foot and the Luck dragon hatched from and they populated the known universe, it doesn't matter to me.

I have a Buddha statue next to one of the Holy Virgin in my room; I've prayed at churchs, temples, shrines and concert halls. Does that change the fact I am human? Am I Kenneth the Catholic not Kenneth the person?

Religion should be a nice garden you hold within yourself, not a wall which you seperate yourself from others with.

Blue Audio

10-19-2006, 11:03 PM

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God"
- Thomas Jefferson

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
- Voltaire

I see religion as being nothing more than a way to cope with the fear of death. All it gives is a belief that there is something after you die, so that one may take solace knowing that their soul will live on.

Obviously the whole theory is bullshit. Life is dictated by fear; be it fear of death or a fear of snakes. So why not create the idea of an omnipotent being who is by all ways and means nothing more than a judge. It's all a scare tactic into forcing people to be decent human beings.

"Be good and you will get into heaven." Now of course some forms of religion have modified this into "Join our church and all your sins will be forgiven" which totally negates the whole point.

Now if only that made sense.

So to answer my original question, no I do not believe in god.

The only thing I can place absolute belief in is the fact that when I die, my body will be either burned or buried. Whether or not there is a heaven or hell doesn't matter to me; I'm still going to try to be a good person.

And that's what I believe the whole concept of religion and god is all about.

ZalorD

10-20-2006, 02:29 AM

you, above me, got yourself a really generic religious shell that's sold in atheist walmart. and you know what people say about walmart, they sell cheap stuff.

(some) religions are not fear-driven. two friends of mine became mormons because they believe in god and the lds, not because they really cared where souls end up in the afterlife.

I don't find any of the major religions in the world inherently evil, detestable or corruptive, though I do make exceptions to certain uh "dark cults" with doctrines that say, preach that murdering people is a jolly good thing to do. As (I think) someone has already pointed out, most religions are very openly interpretive. Differnt people will subscribe different amount of faith (not a very good way to put it, but words fail me right now) to a religious doctrine and follow it to different degrees. That is dependent upon different people's spiritual needs. Therefore, a person may only follow the religious rules loosely and practice a few of the rituals, while another person might devote every aspect of his life to every detail stated in the scripture/holy document/whatever. That is very much their choice in how they want to conduct their lives, and it's not really anybody else's business. I do find problem with people who try to force their religions upon others. I don't find any problem with a person going to another person and try to convert that person to Christianity, as long as the preacher doesn't start assaulting the other person. Preaching is very much like stating an opinion. If you just state your opinion to another person, say "I think homosexuality is wrong because my God says so," and respect the other person's opinion when he disagrees with that statement, then there is no problem. But when you start attacking the other person with jihads or Inquisitions, that's when there is trouble. Unfortunately, some people do follow the latter course of action, and that saddens me, because they not only do great harm to the world, but also give their religions a bad name.
word.

NausicaaBoy

10-20-2006, 05:50 AM

soundchazer

10-20-2006, 06:11 AM

Its 6:30.... I usually dont start in on philosophy until 8. But Ill give it a shot. I think when you explore a question that has such inherent reprecussions on your life as this, you should take a certain circumspective aproach and appraise all angels with indifference. However, when I explore this subject I find it best to follow along a path of questioning. On such example would be as follows:

Q: Where did the solar system come from
A: Inter-stellar Nebulatic matter

Q: Where did matter come from
A: The big bang

Q: What caused the big bang
A: Unkown

Q: Nothing is something, you can put something into the nothingness of space. How was this space formed.
A: Unkown

Q: Everything was formed from matter
A: How was the first matter formed - it is impossible that it just appeared at some random point in universal history. The spontaneous creation of matter is impossible. As stated in universely accepted (no pun intended) theory of conservation of mass. "No Matter Can Be Created or destroyed." Thus anyone who accepts this theory also accepts the existence of a higher being, as the original matter of the universe could not have been created without divine or other intervention.

agree or disagree I wont be offended either way. Its nice to see everyone firing a few neurons on this one.

P

Hmmm... that sounds an awful lot like the argument of the first cause, first brought to light by Aristotle, and then adapted and refined by Thomas Aquinas:

1. Every effect has a cause(s).
2. Nothing can cause itself.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, there must be a first cause; or, there must be something which is not an effect.

St. Thomas Aquinas had other 4 arguments for the existence of God:

The Argument of Necessity:

- Many things in the universe may either exist or not exist. Such things are called contingent beings.
- It is impossible for everything in the universe to be contingent.
- Therefore, there must be a necessary being whose existence is not contingent on any other being(s).

The Argument of Perfection:

- Various perfections may be found in varying degrees throughout the universe.
- These degrees of perfections assume the existence of the perfections themselves.

The Argument of Design:

1. Every design has a designer.
2. The universe has highly complex design.
3. Therefore, the universe has a Designer.

The Argument of the unmoved mover (also a derivation from Aristotle's Metaphysics):

"God who moves all things, must Himself be unmovable. If He, being the first mover, were Himself moved, He would have to be moved either by Himself or by another. He cannot be moved by another, for then there would have to be some mover prior to Him, which is against the very idea of a first mover. If He is moved by Himself, this can be conceived in two ways: either that He is a mover and moved according to the same respect or that He is a mover according to one aspect of Him and is moved according to another aspect. The first of these alternatives is ruled out. For everything that is moved is, to that extent, in potency, and whatever moves [i.e., changes] is in act. Therefore if God is both mover and moved according to the same respect, He has to be in potency and in act according to the same respect, which is impossible. The second alternative is likewise out of the question. If one part were causing motion and another were being moved, there would be no first mover himself as such, but only by reason of the part of him which causes motion . . . Accordingly, the first mover must be altogether unmovable."

Roark

10-20-2006, 07:06 AM

soundchazer

10-20-2006, 07:35 AM

Ahh, teleological thinking at it's best, with a bit of ontology thrown in for good measure. Looking at those a few years ago, they were challenging. Seeing them again, at least spelled out like that, there's some obvious points of attack.

First argument:
1. Various attacks on causation by Leibniz, Hume, and others. Correlated events don't mean causal relationships. In fact, causation is notoriously difficulty to prove.
2. How about uncaused effects, such as observed quantum effects?
3. Why can't there be an infinite causal chain?

Second argument:
1. Definition
2. Assertion. Why can't all things in the universe be contingent? I can imagine a world where that's true.

Third argument is pretty much garbage.

Fourth argument:
1. This presumes human standards of design. Natural designs (spirals, fractals, grand canyons) occur without any obvious designer. Design is also a relative term, since it's possible we ascribe design onto randomness.
2. Again, this is an assertion. We presume that a design exists. You approach an epistemic barrier, in that any apparent design is mediated via our perception. An apparently ordered universe only appears so, it might be ascriptive rather than descriptive, fitting rules into chaos. Quantum theories suggest this.

* soundchazer shrugs

This is one of those themes were there can be no clear cut winner of the argument. I could go saying "why should there be an infinite causal chain and how can you prove it?"

The reality is that some of the arguments, while not being bulletproof, are definitive enough to require the counterpart to make definitive assertions without real possibility of proof to completely debunk them. In short, both sides of the table on the God vs. no God debate require a certain "leap of faith" (pardon the pun) to present their case. The truth is we really don't know one way or the other. I don't really care either way. The idea of a Supreme Architect works for me, but it doesn't hurt my feelings if it doesn't for other people, as long as they don't invade my space and attack my beliefs.

animanic_critic

10-20-2006, 09:21 AM

I am a Muslim myself, but I can confidently say that I am no angel. Personally, I find myself quite agnostic because I often question his role in any part of my life. I am supposedly to believe in God, but personally religion (or specifically the belief in God) is an intrinsic matter, so I have my own opinions.

The way I see, everyone is a god and a devil rolled into one. The question is, which side would you lean towards more. When I think like this, it makes my life a whole less complicated.

GWS923

10-20-2006, 02:46 PM

Here is where a lot of people fall into a very common pitfall. Loner said "I find that statement to be completely stupid." Please not that this is not the same as saying "GWS's comment is stupid."

See the difference? No wonder people get offended so easily, they cannot even make the distinction between discussion of ideas and personal attacks.

Well I may not have been able to accuratley discern Loner's comments as agreeing with my own, but at least I don't patronize everyone on the forums. In no part of my response to Loner did I intimate that I was offended. I thought he was confused and I was trying to clarify.

loner

10-20-2006, 07:00 PM

And yeah, I didn't really find GWS923's post to be uh, furious, or anything. So yeah, a little misunderstanding, I will learn to quote better next time (eh, not, since I'm still lazy >_>), let's forget about that and keep talking about omnipotent things :)

annie14892

10-20-2006, 07:33 PM

Tyrdium

10-20-2006, 10:30 PM

Reason 0 you shouldn't believe the Da Vinci Code: It's. Bloody. Fiction.

Thank you.

Yes there are hypocrites out there who claim to be a Christian but yet still sins.Uh. Yes? See Mark 14:29-31 and 14:66-72 (link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2014:29-31;&version=49;) and link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2014:66-72;&version=49;)). Everyone sins, including the apostles. God/Jesus alone is without sin.

Oh and if God and Christ doesn't exist,Why would the calender have BC? ever thought of what BC stood for? *cough Before Christ *cough* =]...?
Think about that. Now think about it again. Note how something seems a bit off about the logic? "BC" was first used extensively in 1474, according to Wikipedia.

Sae

10-20-2006, 11:35 PM

The reason for this thread really baffles me. Why the controversy on ones beliefs? People believe what they choose to believe. And anyone who even considers to mess with their beliefs is a damned fool.

Sae-chan

General Suburbia

10-20-2006, 11:53 PM

Oh and BOOO 'The Davinci Code'! Don't believe it.This girl at school says she's a Christian and yet she belives it..Shows you how strong her faith is.

Reasons you should not believe 'the Davinci code':
1.Jesus did not have a baby!
2.If he did then where are his heirs NOW?No one knows.Ha!!
3.The author ISN'T even a Christian!He's probably the man Satan is using.(The bible says somewhere in Revelation that Satan would be able to use a man to do his biddings)
You must have been living under a rock. Most people knew the book was full of shit after the first week it came out. The rest found out it was a load of bs after watching National Treasure.

Does God exist? I definately think so. No way to prove it though, since as SC says, all such arguments have to rely on some sort of "leap of faith."

loner

10-21-2006, 12:18 AM

Yes I do believe God exists.
Yes there are hypocrites out there who claim to be a Christian but yet still sins.However there are others who are indeed very good Christians(those who does charity and spreads the word about God).Oh before you start getting on my back about calling others hypocrites,I do not deny being one.I am a terrible Christian..but I do try to be the best that I am.I try to go to church every Sunday,but I haven't been going lately because I feel so discouraged looking at everyone in church.They claim that they care about people..but behind the people's back,they gossip about them.I do not do that..(exept now)

Oh and if God and Christ doesn't exist,Why would the calender have BC? ever thought of what BC stood for? *cough Before Christ *cough* =]

Oh and BOOO 'The Davinci Code'! Don't believe it.This girl at school says she's a Christian and yet she belives it..Shows you how strong her faith is.

Reasons you should not believe 'the Davinci code':
1.Jesus did not have a baby!
2.If he did then where are his heirs NOW?No one knows.Ha!!
3.The author ISN'T even a Christian!He's probably the man Satan is using.(The bible says somewhere in Revelation that Satan would be able to use a man to do his biddings)

Ahem, you know that calenders are created by human beings right? Before Christ is used because European Christians used it. Specifically, Julian and Gregorian calenders. It is prevalently used by the rest of the world these days because these calenders prove to be quite correct and the UN recognizes it. It's used in historical studies because it's a good standard. However, many other countries and religions use different calenders. Japan numbers years according to the accession of the emperor, and this was used in China during the imperial years as well (and still used in Taiwan to this day).

Wiki article that you should read through. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Before_Christ)

Anyways, your post is an example of the preaching I talked about. And as long as you don't try to call your church to strike me down or anything, I will respect your opinion, but I find what you said in your post to be wrong in several instances. I personally find the Da Vinci Code as a trashy fiction and find Dan Brown a pretty awful writer, but your claims that "he is influenced by Satan", which you were throwing out not as opinions but as facts, are rather slanderous. And why does he need to be Christian to write a fiction novel about Jesus, the Holy Grail and all that jazz? And about that girl in your school, why can't she believe in that? That's her personal choice to make, whether she's Christian or not Christian. I think you need to look beyond the Bible and try to understand other religions, other people's opinions on this matter. You will be able to make a stronger argument after that.

And Sae, no one is trying to cause controversies on people's beliefs here. This question have been debated throughout history by many great theologians and philosophers, and it will continued to be debated. As long as nobody resort to personal attacks on a specific person's beliefs and stay civil, which this thread has so far, I don't see a reason why we should not discuss this topic.

Mana

10-21-2006, 05:29 AM

Dark Lord

10-21-2006, 05:45 AM

Hmmm... Basically, we can only have our opinions on the matter... Because no matter how much we say that God exists or not, we can never really know for sure... Whatever proofs we may have, we have no true proof of his existence... Also, beliefs are also a way for people to hide the very pointlessness of their existences... As for The Da Vinci Code, its a work of fiction created for the purpose of the entertainment of the masses... I think a rational being would be able to deduce that pretty well... I don't really know what the hulabaloo on the book is about... Another thing, its very, very rude to accuse people of being used by Satan... Anyone got that?

Oh... Could anyone tell me the difference between an Atheist and an Agnostic? I don't know if they're the same thing or not...

Ojisan

10-21-2006, 06:09 AM

Atheists don't believe in a God. Agnostics recognize the possibility of a God, but don't commit one way or the other.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic

Roark

10-21-2006, 07:16 AM

Addendum to "Atheists don't believe in god(s)."

1. Change "god" to "unnatural higher power(s)."
2. Don't read that as "deny the existence of god(s)." We dont' think there's anything there to deny. In fact, this is a central point missed about atheists. We don't go around saying "God doesn't exist!" Instead, we treat our (non)belief as more of a default setting. People asserting the existence of a supreme being are the one's with something to prove. So far, no one has given convincing arguments and/or evidence. Atheists acknowledge teh possibility of god-like beings, at least in the Arthur C. Clarke sense. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." However, we generally don't think of things violating what we know as a priori true. In other words, we believe in advanced natural beings, but discount the possibility of supernatural beings (that being a contradiction in terms).

So, people asserting supernatural beings (God, santa, easter bunny, celine dion) are faced with the task of proving such things exist and, more importantly, showing how they can possibly exist.

And as a side note, BC is not used for dating. Neither is A.D. (Annos domini, i.e, in the year of our lord). BCE (Before Common Era) and CE (Common Era) are the standards for chronological dating now.

Arkaine Deao

10-21-2006, 08:00 AM

There are many things in this world that cannot be proven. I, for one, would like an explanation for the phenomenon of spontaneous combustion. It is known to exist (i.e. it has been reported on several times in different parts of the world) but nobody so far has been able to come up with a reason for why it happens, or even why it happens how it has been known to happen, which is piles of ash and burnt bone fragments, but things around them relatively untouched. Atheists ask others to prove supernaturality, but it seems that it is just something that can neither be proven or disproven.

annie14892

10-21-2006, 09:42 AM

Reason 0 you shouldn't believe the Da Vinci Code: It's. Bloody. Fiction.

Thank you.

Uh. Yes? See Mark 14:29-31 and 14:66-72 Everyone sins, including the apostles. God/Jesus alone is without sin.

Okay you got me on that one.Everyone does sin..I never said no one sinned though. :P All I said was that there are some good Christians.What I mean
is that after a long time of sinning,they realized how horrible they are and actually REPENTS for it and tries to back away from sinning.Other Christians however,don't give a rat's a** about how much they sin as long as they 'look' good as a christian in church.

Oh and also,if the ‘Da Vinci Code’ wasn’t believed in that much why would it be the top selling book/movie?

...?
Think about that. Now think about it again. Note how something seems a bit off about the logic? "BC" was first used extensively in 1474, according to Wikipedia.

You do know that Wikipedia can be edited any time by anyone that has an account in there right..?

Ahem, you know that calenders are created by human beings right? Before Christ is used because European Christians used it. Specifically, Julian and Gregorian calenders. It is prevalently used by the rest of the world these days because these calenders prove to be quite correct and the UN recognizes it. It's used in historical studies because it's a good standard.
Eh..stuck help please..
Edit: See it was quite correct.. =]

your claims that "he is influenced by Satan", which you were throwing out not as opinions but as facts, are rather slanderous.

3.The author ISN'T even a Christian! He's probably the man Satan is using.

Yes.I never said he was,but I said he’s probably.

I may be wrong because Revelation might have said that Satan will get to use a man only after Jesus comes back.I was terribly tired last night.. >.>

Phew!That was tiring..so hard to explain..=X

Roark

10-21-2006, 10:02 AM

Eh..stuck help please..
Edit: See it was quite correct.. =]

The calendars were mathematically correct, not theologically correct. They could have used XD and XO and it still would be correct, mathematically. People adopted the gregorian calendar because it was scientifically accurate, not for theological reasons.

Phew!That was tiring..so hard to explain..=X

Especailly since, you know, you didn't actually explain a single thing.

And, yes, wiki is editable by anyone at anytime. That generally helps ensure accuracy though, not call it into question. Open encyclopedia britanica, they'll say the same thing.

annie14892

10-21-2006, 10:08 AM

Ouch..that hurts..

Okay fine I didn't explain it..

I'll leave this subject to the other wise people than..*leaves thread* >.>

Milkymagic

10-21-2006, 10:20 AM

Everyday I see this thread up for a good jousting, but I'm not one to debate religion, though I'll share my thoughts just to be social.

Growing up, I've always thought the concept of a god was inside people's heads, that they were scared and begged for such a thing to exist. Of course, my parents never made me attend church, ever. Well, except for the occasional wedding or funeral, give or take which ones I actually remember.

Knowing that, my skepticism on the matter remains reasonable, but being Agnostic is in my nature these days simply because I don't wish to be reduced to cinder if there ever really is one (though I'm obviously too late).

And if there is, the whole deal better be like the film "Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey." I'd so challenge the Reaper in something like Risk or Scattergories.

I'm not pulling any punches, just kinda saying what's on my mind.

Tyrdium

10-21-2006, 11:11 AM

Okay you got me on that one.Everyone does sin..I never said no one sinned though. :P All I said was that there are some good Christians.What I mean
is that after a long time of sinning,they realized how horrible they are and actually REPENTS for it and tries to back away from sinning.Other Christians however,don't give a rat's a** about how much they sin as long as they 'look' good as a christian in church.

Oh and also,if the ‘Da Vinci Code’ wasn’t believed in that much why would it be the top selling book/movie?Matthew 6:5-8 (link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206:5-8;&version=49;)), in other words.

As for the Da Vinci Code, does that mean that Harry Potter is real? After all, it's consistently a best-seller.

loner

10-21-2006, 01:19 PM

Ouch..that hurts..

Okay fine I didn't explain it..

I'll leave this subject to the other wise people than..*leaves thread* >.>

Just to remind you on one thing that I hope you will be able to keep in mind: don't use the Bible as a source of truth that you can use to prove your point, especially when the connection is tenuous at best. I can quote certain passages from the Koran to support the claim that jihad is righteous, I can quote certain Daoist passages to support the claim that certain sexual techniques will revitalize your inner force and help achieve immortality. No one will take me seriously. Doing that for preaching is fine (though very ineffective way of preaching IMO), doing that in debates is utterly useless and tend to annoy a lot of people who don't share your religious beliefs.

Once again, I think you need to open your eyes to things outside the Bible. I encourage you to read and sometimes try to chime in a little in this kind of threads. Yes your claims will be put to the sword if you fail to back them up, but it's a good learning process and I think will benefit you immensely.

annie14892

10-21-2006, 01:51 PM

Uhmm okay.

>.> Gosh..I didn't know it was going to be that hard to talk about God..Eh,I'm a terrible Christian.

Dennis

10-21-2006, 02:19 PM

Oh and also,if the ‘Da Vinci Code’ wasn’t believed in that much why would it be the top selling book/movie?
Some people enjoy a fun piece of fiction now and then; sadly, some missed the fact that The DaVinci Code is real.

animanic_critic

10-21-2006, 06:37 PM

Uhmm okay.

>.> Gosh..I didn't know it was going to be that hard to talk about God..Eh,I'm a terrible Christian.
No, you're not a terrible Christian; it's just that you usually think of "What is" rather than "What if". We're not discouraging you from believing in the Bible, but rather be more open-minded and see religious beliefs from different points of view. We all have brains, and no one can control us from thinking what we want to think about (and yeah, that includes Almighty God Himself).

loner is right; there are passages in the Koran/Quran stating that jihad is morally justified. Personally speaking, I just find it ridiculously how the Muslim radicals used that concept to justify their terrorists actions, possibly due to gross misintepretation.

You're still young and there are alot of religious aspects you have probably yet to explore. I have seen Non-Christians who actually know more about Christianity than their Christians counterparts, and likewise for Non-Muslims. Do not always believe that life revolves around one book. Discussing about religion and God is nothing blasphemous; rather, what's blasphemous is when people begin to judge and start pointing fingers at those who's in that discussion itself.

annie14892

10-21-2006, 07:03 PM

Uhm..The subject of God confuses me..I rarely read the bible anyways..and when I do,I don't get half of what the passage says.
But..Okay,I'll be more cosiderate of other religions now.

soundchazer

10-21-2006, 07:05 PM

I believe that if you take the time to analyze your religion, put it to scrutiny, an after all is said and done, you come up believing it still holds true for you, then you are going to enjoy it more, and at the same time will be able to be more open to respect the opinon of others.

silan

10-21-2006, 07:38 PM

God/Jesus alone is without sin.
Debatable.

Although theologically correct.

And no, God doesn't exist, in my opinion.

Dark Lord

10-21-2006, 07:55 PM

I really love these kinds of threads... Religion is vital to any civilization as it gives meaning to a person's life... Religion gives people hope, even if that might be a false hope... It also gives a person a reason to justify their actions... Which is why I say that life is a void... However, I remain convinced that a "God" is just a fabrication created by people to hide emptiness they feel in life... So, in a way, religion and drugs are the same... Both are used to forget one's worries and troubles... And as no one wants to die, the idea of immortality was brought up... But they just don't want to remember that death will eventually come...

Shadowmage

10-21-2006, 08:26 PM

So, people asserting supernatural beings (God, santa, easter bunny, celine dion) are faced with the task of proving such things exist and, more importantly, showing how they can possibly exist.

Interesting, I've always thought in the opposite manner. I acknowledge that God exists, and do not feel compelled to prove his existence to others. For me, normalcy is the state where there is a higher power who governs, at the very least, death. Why? Like you, I feel there is nothing to prove.

Tyrdium

10-21-2006, 08:44 PM

Just to remind you on one thing that I hope you will be able to keep in mind: don't use the Bible as a source of truth that you can use to prove your point, especially when the connection is tenuous at best.That said, it's generally acceptable in a discussion between people of the same faith.

I believe that if you take the time to analyze your religion, put it to scrutiny, an after all is said and done, you come up believing it still holds true for you, then you are going to enjoy it more, and at the same time will be able to be more open to respect the opinon of others.<3.

Uhm..The subject of God confuses me..I rarely read the bible anyways..and when I do,I don't get half of what the passage says.I should ask: which translation are you using? I've found that some are much easier to understand than others, which leaves you to focus on thinking about the scriptures rather than trying to figure out what they're saying.

Roark

10-21-2006, 08:46 PM

Interesting, I've always thought in the opposite manner. I acknowledge that God exists, and do not feel compelled to prove his existence to others. For me, normalcy is the state where there is a higher power who governs, at the very least, death. Why? Like you, I feel there is nothing to prove.
This is somewhat a technical point, but debates are grounded in technical points. When talking about assertions, people generally talk in terms of positive assertions. For example, I make an assertion like "Socrates is a man." Now, the burden rests on me to show that yes, indeed, Socrates is male. This is rather easy. (At least, it is from a biological standpoint. This ignores any transgender claims of "female mind in a male body.")

Premise one: All mammals with testicles and a phallus are male.
Premise two: Socrates is a mammal with testicles and a phallus.
Conclusion: Socrates is male.

This is a simple, positive assertion on my part. This is opposed to a negative assertion, like "God does not exist." People don't generally deal in negative assertions, especailly with existence. Why? Because generally, everyone accepts the nonexistence until shown otherwise. The person actively making a claim must show that his or her claim is right. Otherwise, you can claim anything you want, no matter how ridiculous, and I'd have to prove you wrong (which, in some cases, is a tiresome process).

This is pretty much guilty until proven innocent.

Shadowmage

10-21-2006, 08:55 PM

This is a simple, positive assertion on my part. This is opposed to a negative assertion, like "God does not exist." People don't generally deal in negative assertions, especailly with existence. Why? Because generally, everyone accepts the nonexistence until shown otherwise. The person actively making a claim must show that his or her claim is right. Otherwise, you can claim anything you want, no matter how ridiculous, and I'd have to prove you wrong (which, in some cases, is a tiresome process).

This is pretty much guilty until proven innocent.

Very nice rebuttal, you are indeed a high class philosophy major.

I could argue with you ad infinitum about the existence (or lack thereof) of God, but history has shown that there will be no solution as long as both parties are firm in their beliefs. I will continue to monitor this thread as I love to discuss this topic since it forces me to actively think about something to which I usually conscribe.

silan

10-21-2006, 09:13 PM

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks so, but the question of whether or not God exists doesn't seem that interesting, really. After all, of the two options - a) he does exist or b) he doesn't exist - neither one can be proven. In the end, the question only ends in an argument between believers and non-believers, without resulting in any productive conclusion between them.

Why does God need to exist?

That question interests me more. You can take it either 1) that he doesn't exist, so why is there such an over-powering belief in him.... or 2) that he does exist, so why is he so important to life and the world?

What do you guys think?

isolatedotaku

10-21-2006, 09:45 PM

You can say God needs to exist because we exist and we need a justification on how we came into existence. Before science was advanced enough to give us another answer, someone somewhere told the tale of an almighty being creating everything. Therefore, God exists as a means for us to exist. Because we formed this foundation, it is hard to acknoweledge the fact that God might not exist. This created the devision between Believers and Non-believers.

The other aspect, the more current one, is that we need God to exist because he makes a good Lobbyist. 80-sum-odd% of America is Christian, and that is one hell of a voting body. Remove God, you have to actually face the issues. No one wants to do that.

A-R@D

10-21-2006, 11:37 PM

Woody Allen fits matches my keen sense of cynism when it comes to the existance of god.

To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.
If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever.

I have to much respect for the idea of god to make he/she/it responible for the absolute absurdity of this world.

Ojisan

10-22-2006, 12:00 AM

Roark likes making positive assertions about phalluses.

kyubichan

10-22-2006, 01:04 AM

Reason 0 you shouldn't believe the Da Vinci Code: It's. Bloody. Fiction.

Thank you.

:3huh: The idiots who believe that book (and the movie) and think it's real are probably the same bl00dy idiots who believe that the Blair Witch Project was real.

Who is God? "You know when you close your eyes and wish really hard for something? God's the God that does nothing." XD

kLaUS

10-22-2006, 08:02 AM

"The psp was invented by god to find the person who could defend heaven from hell"...

So, yeah, he exists...

We need to believe in something, life without faith its pretty boring, and while we dont have any answers, we can still keep believing in our own invensions of god.

silan

10-22-2006, 11:16 AM

life without faith its pretty boring
Why?

Milkymagic

10-22-2006, 12:06 PM

Why?

I agree, being I've got plenty of things to keep me happy.

Family, friends, video games, anime, film, writing, etc.

There's many things that keep me excited to be alive on this planet, why would it matter if you had faith? It's ok to have it, but it shouldn't be a life requirement. Of course, faith as a generality, and not as a religious tool seems more practical to me. But from what I'm interpreting, I don't seem to understand either.

kyubichan

10-22-2006, 12:39 PM

why would it matter if you had faith?

There's that time in everyone's life when no one can help. You just cry to yourself and ask "why?". With faith, some people make it through. As for myself, I've always believed there is an almighty one who watches us and is there for us, thus my tears are lessened. True, it's not a life requirement. But then again, faith is a personal thing.

kLaUS

10-22-2006, 12:44 PM

Why?

Good question. Well, havent you find yourself in a situation where you have no decision at all and everything is up to the destiny, and maybe all is going to end up badly, but you still hope for the best, doesnt matter what logic says ?¿ i think thats the point of faith, and a life without it, would be sometimes depresing, in a way i think it makes all of us happy. The best example of that its whats gonna happen to all after we died, no one have the answer for that, but we still have faith that we are going somewhere, right?¿

silan

10-22-2006, 01:30 PM

Good question. Well, havent you find yourself in a situation where you have no decision at all and everything is up to the destiny, and maybe all is going to end up badly, but you still hope for the best, doesnt matter what logic says ?¿
Personally, no. No matter what situations I've faced in my life, there has never been a single one in which I didn't have a choice at some level, whether a major choice that would determine the outcome, or a minor choice that merely determined how I'd deal with whatever outcome occurred.

There is no such thing as destiny besides the path you forge for yourself.

Faith can be a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing, because it might lead someone to passively accepting what comes in their life rather than taking control of their own present and future.

The best example of that its whats gonna happen to all after we died, no one have the answer for that, but we still have faith that we are going somewhere, right?¿
No, I don't. But then, I never even think about it.

What's the point of thinking about death and worrying about whether or not there's an existence afterwards? This life right now is the important thing. The people you meet now and the experiences you have now, that's what life is all about. This isn't all some practice test-run for the real thing after we die.

Focusing too much on what comes after life will lead you to overlook what's happening around you. It's pointless anyway, since no one knows what happens.

kyubichan

10-22-2006, 01:53 PM

No, I don't. But then, I never even think about it.

Have you ever been on a train and you don't have a clue about where it goes? Some people feel life is like that. With faith, they have an idea (may be real, or not) of where they're going, and that provides comfort.

silan

10-22-2006, 01:57 PM

Have you ever been on a train and you don't have a clue about where it goes? Some people feel life is like that. With faith, they have an idea (may be real, or not) of where they're going, and that provides comfort.
That's silly in the first place, though. Life isn't a train out-of-control. We're not just along for the ride. We should be the conductor of that train, not an idle passenger waiting to see where we end up.

You shouldn't get on a train unless you know where it's going. You should have a purpose. Letting someone else or some God or faith tell you where you're going isn't a purpose, it's a cowardly flight from taking responsibility.

Not saying that they can't give you inspiration on the correct path to take, but you should never just give yourself over into their hands entirely.

kyubichan

10-22-2006, 02:00 PM

Like I said, some people feel that way. And I'm not implying that it's a train out of control, it's just that it's not under our control. Anyway, I'm just explaining why it matters to have faith.

kLaUS

10-22-2006, 02:08 PM

Well, lets see this from a more difficult point of view.
Someone you love gets in a horrible accident and his/her life is in danger, and right now you just have to wait while the doctors try to save him/her, for a minute dont you just wish that he/she can be saved, and even if you can do anything, dont you feel a little obligate to, not pray, but hope for the best, dont you think that all that you have in a moment like that is faith ?¿

And about life after dead, im not talking about worrying your hole life, but at some point dont you think you should stop and wonder, where im going after all this ?¿ whats gonna happen after this ?¿ I have faith that there has to be a surprising answer for that...

kyubichan

10-22-2006, 02:12 PM

There's to much faith in this thread... I feel myself choking on this strange and foreign substance...

You don’t need faith to wander aimlessly through life... I’ve been doing it for quite sometime. I was sent to jail multiple times before, seen a best friend die 2 feet behind me...(the list goes on)... I’ve never need a crutch (which is what faith is, a support pillar for those who can’t stand on their own two feet) to get through tough times and don’t plan too ever need one.

~this post will self destruct in 4 minutes~

For all the world to see!

Itachi Uchiha

10-22-2006, 02:18 PM

Crap! That was only there for like 20 seconds too!

animanic_critic

10-22-2006, 06:23 PM

Personally, no. No matter what situations I've faced in my life, there has never been a single one in which I didn't have a choice at some level, whether a major choice that would determine the outcome, or a minor choice that merely determined how I'd deal with whatever outcome occurred.

There is no such thing as destiny besides the path you forge for yourself.

Faith can be a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing, because it might lead someone to passively accepting what comes in their life rather than taking control of their own present and future.
You know what: I kinda agree with you on this one. Everything is made up of choices, and personally, I don't believe in the phrase "I have no other choice". There's always a choice in life; it's just a question on whether you want to choose that option.

Destiny? Fate? Honestly speaking, those words are very much synonymous to the Muslim community. Deep inside, I feel it's a load of bullcrap. When someone says it's fate (or God's work) that something good/bad has happened, don't you feel like your life has been premeditated? Like when something good should happen or when shit should happen... I hate that idea itself.

It's like your parents tell you what you should be when you grow up, when you have dreams and goals in life for yourself. I take control my own life, and if something bad happens, well, it just happens. Life is all about ups and downs.

Yes, like kyubichan connoted, some people feel like their lives are like runaway trains, and I'll tell these people to get a hold of themselves. They usually feel like this when too many things (bad ones typically) are happening at the same time. Eventually, people need to control their own way of life and not let others do that for them.

Well, lets see this from a more difficult point of view.
Someone you love gets in a horrible accident and his/her life is in danger, and right now you just have to wait while the doctors try to save him/her, for a minute dont you just wish that he/she can be saved, and even if you can do anything, dont you feel a little obligate to, not pray, but hope for the best, dont you think that all that you have in a moment like that is faith ?¿
I've been through this sort of situation and yes, I pray that he will pull through. However, I pray that the doctor can help save the victim (in my case, it was my grandfather), not God; and I do this all the time. When my grandfather got well, the one I'm grateful the most is the doctor himself. Technically, I still am thankful to that doctor because it's he who saved my grandfather.

In the end, people need faith to pull through, but the faith need not always be towards God. If you believe in something so much, in other words, have so much faith in something that's not always affiliated with the Almighty Himself, it will happen. At least that's how I see my life.

annie14892

10-22-2006, 06:55 PM

kyubichan

10-22-2006, 09:01 PM

Crap! That was only there for like 20 seconds too!

Ha! I beat you, you sneaky Akatsuki!

Okay..Since we're on the subject of God,do you believe in near death experiences where you see hell/heaven/God/whatever you believe in?

I've been through that as a kid. I had bronchopneumonia and wasn't breathing for a whole minute, but I don't remember much... whether I 'saw' hell/heaven, I mean.

Better yet,do you believe in recarnation?

Not like: "Wow, I think I was a princess in my former life 'coz I'm so bitchy!" , but my cat looks and acts just like my dog who died a year before, sometimes I think he's a reincarnation.

Ojisan

10-22-2006, 09:31 PM

Okay..Since we're on the subject of God,do you believe in near death experiences where you see hell/heaven/God/whatever you believe in?

That's the thing. You see whatever you believe in. Therefore = in the mind and not proof of any specifics.

As far as the non-religious, out-of-body experiences, where people can actually accurately describe what was happening to them from a third perspective while being totally unconsious, I find them very interesting, but the credibility and scarcity of such stories are hard to swallow as proof of anything.

animanic_critic

10-22-2006, 09:42 PM

Okay..Since we're on the subject of God,do you believe in near death experiences where you see hell/heaven/God/whatever you believe in?
Better yet,do you believe in recarnation?

*you is directed towards everyone.
I do believe in near-death experiences, but most of the time, the things people would see at the brink of their deaths are recollections of their lives, for instance, usually families and loved ones. I've heard of people who came across meeting God or anything ephereal to them, but the bottom line is this experience pretty much depends on the individual itself.

My conclusion is that if you believe in God in most of your life, chances are you will see signs of Him at point or another. If you hadn't, it'll be the other way around. This can also be applied to ghosts or spirits: people who claim to see them are the ones who believe in them in the first places. Sceptics are ones who you can bet, have never them before... obviously >.>

As for reincarnation, my religion doesn't teach or encourage in believing in reincarnation. I find it pretty hard to believe in it myself, because just think about it: if you've done something evil now, would you be reincarnated as someone who has a miserable life, possibly due to karma? EDITED: If so, does that mean that anyone who's having a miserable life is due to their wrongdoings in their past lives? Oh, wouldn't that be interesting...

Milkymagic

10-22-2006, 09:46 PM

Okay..Since we're on the subject of God,do you believe in near death experiences where you see hell/heaven/God/whatever you believe in?
Better yet,do you believe in recarnation?

*you is directed towards everyone.

I've always felt that it was trauma that occurred within the person, and that they were hallucinating from that traumatic experience. But I think the biggest factor is whether their brain is getting enough oxygen during this kind of crisis, since without much of that your brain would start to space out and toss you into a dreamlike state. Meaning you're quite capable of seeing many things that could be generated by your own mind's state.

kyubichan

10-22-2006, 10:04 PM

if you've done something evil now, would you be reincarnated as someone who has a miserable life, possibly due to karma? Oh, wouldn't that be interesting...

That's an interesting take. I watched a horror movie where a girl used to be a murderer in her past life, and the spirits her past self murdered haunted her and drove her crazy. Life would suck it that really happened to everyone.

StealDragon

10-22-2006, 10:14 PM

the whole concept of reincarnation sounds a bit silly to me, that your life and the experiences in it are going to be affected by someone you have absolutely nothing to do with... granted i dont fully understand the depths of its origin but to me it seems a bit wacked out. ive always favored death to be like sleeping... as you die you drift into a permanent dream... now what you dream of is up to you, if you dream that you go to heaven then thats it, youre in heaven, if you dream you were in your perfect world then you are, and if you die thinking youll be in hell then you will be... just like if you fell asleep...

Liegenschonheit

10-23-2006, 01:21 AM

Does God Exist?

No. Yes...well, possibly. Maybe. Nah. That would be a boring job.

Shadowmage

10-23-2006, 06:18 PM

Okay..Since we're on the subject of God,do you believe in near death experiences where you see hell/heaven/God/whatever you believe in?
Better yet,do you believe in recarnation?

Simply put, I doubt it. In a near death experience a person typically falls into a state of massive asphyxiation which results in hallucination (often recalling images from the subconscious mind.) Using the theory that all memory is retained in some undiscerned part of the brain, you will probably see pivotal moments of your past, you may see love ones including those that have passed away, and you may even see your interpretation of God.

As for reincarnation, I personally think that a person can be effectively considered dead if they lose their memories or significant parts of their memories. There can be a whole new person left behind, but the original person is gone. This is the same for a person who has severe amnesia or has been reborn through incarnation. So to me, even if you are reincarnated, it doesn't matter; you are a whole new person.