Honesty is not the best policy.

[Ninja Realist]

You can call me old fashioned, but I personally like to be honest. Not honest when convenient, not honest when it doesn't offend someone, just completely honest, for better or for worse. Granted, I can't manage this all of the time, and there are times when I'm not entirely honest. But whenever it counts I really try my best to say what I honestly think and what I honestly did. Some people may perceive this as cruelty or rudeness, or maybe they see it for what it is and just can't deal with someone's honest opinion. But that doesn't really matter for me because a man who is honest, to himself and to others, dies with no regrets.

Which brings me to my point. Apparently now a days, people think that honesty is something that can be tapped and metered out, something that should only be said when it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings or doesn't jeapordize anyone's careers. People think it's better to lie to someone to make them feel better than to let them know your honest opinnion.

Who can blame them? Most people are dishonest these days. Dishonesty is even endorsed in some cases. The president lies, powerful CEO's lie, the media often lies. Hell who IS trustworthy these days?

But what I truly don't get is why people criticize honesty. Why people try to put a gag over those who would speak the truth. Is it simply that some people have no self-restraint? Can they not take critcism? Do they think that insulting someone is worse than lieing?

Or is it something else? Is it a fundamental change in our society? Do I simply have a strange set of values in comparison to the majority of people? Or is it something else entirely?




P.S. Yes this thread was spurred on by something that some of you may have been witness to in IRC, but that is not what's up for discussion here. Besides, this attitude is something that I have noticed throughout every vein of society, not just this small corner of the internet.

[Zushio]

You whine like a bitch, someone should block you.

[A-R@D]

Yes honesty is important; but it is naïve to think that complete honesty is allways the best policy or that lies are evil or even shamefull. There are many situations where lying can be helpfull or even necessary.
Lies are a tool for deception.It is not the lies, but the intentions and reasons of the person who is doing the lying that are significant.

[punkusa20_2001]

well honest zuchi, you are out of place. Ninja pwns you. Next lesson.

I am honest about everything, I am an actor, so I will put myself in any position. I argue with police officers about the law, i say penis just to strike conversation when it dies. BUT there is one thing I wont tell the truth about when questioned and that is my political party. if I know nothing will come of it I will say socialist, but if it has a credible impact on my future I will say dem or rep as the situation calls. nobody understands socialists

[Ritalin]

I do believe it is worse to be completely honest all of the time than to be honest in choice situations.

You can very easily stir some bad feelings unintentionally, or offend someone without knowing. Rather than be honest all the time, I find it best to be honest in certain situations. But this doesn't mean I will flat out lie if I don't want to be honest, it's where the term "white lie" came from. If a friend came up to me with a ridiculous problem that I, personally, find a total waste of time, but is clearly upsetting him/her, I won't always say "this is a waste of time", but try to rationalize and comfort them until they come to that conclusion as well.

There are exceptions to that as well though... sometimes I will just tell them it is if I find it'll give the best result.

For subjects such as arts, there I am dead honest and believe most people should be as well. The only time I will fluff things is when I tutored for a high school art class, or for beginning artists (but there is a point where I stop the fluff). This also applies to things I do for a living which sometimes falls under arts (web design/graphic design).

What I'm trying to say is, instead of being honest all the time no matter what, do what will give the best end results.

[soundchazer]

I think there are ways of being honest without being hurtful. I do believe honesty is the best policy.

As a matter of fact, I think Realist is the last person who should be talking about honesty, honestly speaking.

[7Raven7]

I also would agree that honest is very important and that a person should avoid lying in any instance.

But here are some other concepts for the more mature who know that life is not black and white: tact, diplomacy (in recognizing that 2 people just might have 2 different opinions which you may not agree with and neither are right or wrong), saying nothing if not positive, saying thank you for a bad gift or misdeed, forgiveness, encouragement, empathy, assertiveness, self-control and the list goes on. None of these are lies or deceit by any means and if you practice them you are only being deceitful if you are merely "acting" like someone who is kind and thoughtful.

[soundchazer]

I also would agree that honest is very important and that a person should avoid lying in any instance.

But here are some other concepts for the more mature who know that life is not black and white: tact, diplomacy (in recognizing that 2 people just might have 2 different opinions which you may not agree with and neither are right or wrong), saying nothing if not positive, saying thank you for a bad gift or misdeed, forgiveness, encouragement, empathy, assertiveness, self-control and the list goes on. None of these are lies or deceit by any means and if you practice them you are only being deceitful if you are merely "acting" like someone who is kind and thoughtful.

That is true... but even being tactful has a time and place. Saying nothing but positive things could lead to lying by omission too.

[Liegenschonheit]

Ha. What happened in IRC was a bit of a joke. Yes, I was insulted, I don't mind criticism, but you need to learn some tact. A little tact goes a long way, rather than stating your opinion in the very blunt manner that you do. Yes, you were banned by Niner, but it was repealed within minutes, and was more a reaction to the way that you handled yourself than what you said.

Sure, you think the sigs I make are generic, uninspired, and bland. I can take criticism. I take what you think with a grain of salt, however, because a large ammount of people seem to disagree with you.

So yeah, tell me you don't like it. Tell me why you don't like it. That's fine. But a little diplomacy is in order, otherwise people will be insulted.

[Ninja Realist]

Ha. What happened in IRC was a bit of a joke. Yes, I was insulted, I don't mind criticism, but you need to learn some tact. A little tact goes a long way, rather than stating your opinion in the very blunt manner that you do. Yes, you were banned by Niner, but it was repealed within minutes, and was more a reaction to the way that you handled yourself than what you said.

Point Taken. Honesty can be tapered by tactfulness and what I said was blunt and rude.

But this thread is still speaking towards a larger societal impetus and not just that specific event.

As a matter of fact, I think Realist is the last person who should be talking about honesty, honestly speaking.

And what is that supposed to mean?

[PsychoSaiya-jin]

Having honesty as a policy or self-enforced rule of thumb is not a bad thing, even if you cannot tell everyone 100% of the truth 100% of the time.
We are all but human and all we can do is try.

ps: Can you please keep IRC and personal politics to IRC and PMs? Forums are not a place for you to air your dirty laundry. Goto MySpace for that.

[silan]

Tact is the oil in the great gears of society. Maybe it's not necessary, but it'll grease those gears up and keep them running smoothly instead of breaking down due to friction. Honesty is the best policy when possible, but many times tact is more important. There are ways to be honest without being cruel or rude.

ps: Can you please keep IRC and personal politics to IRC and PMs? Forums are not a place for you to air your dirty laundry. Goto MySpace for that.
That comment is kind of unfair and pretty uncalled-for in my opinion, because he specifically said that he's not using this topic to complain about what happened on IRC, but to comment on an aspect of society. (P.S. Yes this thread was spurred on by something that some of you may have been witness to in IRC, but that is not what's up for discussion here. Besides, this attitude is something that I have noticed throughout every vein of society, not just this small corner of the internet. -- Realist) And nowhere in any of his replies that I've seen has he gone against that statement.

There's absolutely no reason why he can't use an experience that happened to him on IRC to create a discussion about a larger social issue, especially since he's not quoting, complaining about, or attacking the people involved with that experience.

[punkusa20_2001]

yeah but he was still influenced heavily by the event in irc. He prob wouldn't of made this post, therefore it is indirectly linked to the irc, which can not be allowed to spill over to the forum. If the two worlds met we would have an epic war that not even the likes of raistlin or urza have laid witness too.


I call the kobolds.

[A-R@D]

Omg, did I just hear a Magic the Gathering/Dragonlance reference !? *cough*Geek!*cough* (of course, I'm a geek as well for recognizing the reference :( )

[PsychoSaiya-jin]

That comment is kind of unfair and pretty uncalled-for in my opinion, because he specifically said that he's not using this topic to complain about what happened on IRC, but to comment on an aspect of society. (P.S. Yes this thread was spurred on by something that some of you may have been witness to in IRC, but that is not what's up for discussion here. Besides, this attitude is something that I have noticed throughout every vein of society, not just this small corner of the internet. -- Realist) And nowhere in any of his replies that I've seen has he gone against that statement.

There's absolutely no reason why he can't use an experience that happened to him on IRC to create a discussion about a larger social issue, especially since he's not quoting, complaining about, or attacking the people involved with that experience.
I'm sorry. I either didn't notice his ps or it wasn't there at the time of writing.
Judging by the flow of replies, I'd guess the latter was the case.
[edit] Anyways, who ever said that my comment was ever aimed at N-R? My request is directed at everyone who wants to rant in an inapropriate area. Online diaries are a great place for that.
Gah, whatever. I'm not going to by hypocritial and agrue about this-and-that. The topic of discussion stands on its own and I've added my 2 pence above :)

[ant]

I honsetly like Liegenschonheit's homemade sigs.

[f1rst children]

I do believe it is worse to be completely honest all of the time than to be honest in choice situations.
...
What I'm trying to say is, instead of being honest all the time no matter what, do what will give the best end results.

I agree with that.

Here's an easy example of why always being honest is not good:

Nazi - Have you seen any Jews?
Me (being honest) - Yes, Anne Frank is hiding in my attic right now.

[soundchazer]

I agree with that.

Here's an easy example of why always being honest is not good:

Nazi - Have you seen any Jews?
Me (being honest) - Yes, Anne Frank is hiding in my attic right now.

Pfft...

Going the other way:

Girlfriend: Does this dress look good on me?
Boyfriend: It looks lovely.
GF buys the dress and the first time she wears it, it tears and she dies from embarrassment on a very important business dinner.

Being dishonest is not a good thing. Again, it all boils down to tact and nuance.

Going back to your example:

Nazi - Have you seen any Jews?
Me (being honest) - Yes, although none recently (obviously, recently could mean 3 months or 3 hours).

[f1rst children]

Well, I wasn't advocating always being dishonest either. I was advocating not always being honest.

Even with your take on the Nazi example, I would instead just lie and answer "No." I believe saying "Yes, but..." would raise the Nazi's suspicions, no matter what the qualifier, and would lead to several follow-up questions of increasing specificity, each harder to escape via semantics.

Being honest is a good general rule, but most rules have exceptions.

[7Raven7]

There is always the alternative of killing the Nazi...

Of course, being practical, I always liked Mr. Schindler's approach

Nazi: Have you seen any Jews?
Mr. Schindler: Of course, they are working in my factory as we speak.

That and I imagine the everyday lie isn't for as noble a cause as protecting someones life. Most are for very selfish reasons and others are just somewhat selfish.

[Jeannie]

I don't go on IRC so I will offer advice using personal experience.

I am a horrible liar. I lie all the time.

That being said I am the oppostie of you Ninja Realist. That being said, since both of us are extreme cases it's safe to say that we can agree that this isn't always a bad thing. Just because you speak the truth and I never do doesn't make us bad people. Just brash.

It's never what you say, it's all about how you say it. The internet is, unfortunatly, the most difficult place to practice this and I can safely assume that is where most of your problems are coming from.
Honesty is always considered a good trait to have. It means that you're down to earth, you keep it real. Most people would rather be called honest than a compolsive liar (like so).

Take my advice as you will. We don't know each other yet so be honest and let me know what you think.

[TonoTheHero]

But what I truly don't get is why people criticize honesty. Why people try to put a gag over those who would speak the truth. Is it simply that some people have no self-restraint? Can they not take critcism? Do they think that insulting someone is worse than lieing?

Or is it something else? Is it a fundamental change in our society? Do I simply have a strange set of values in comparison to the majority of people? Or is it something else entirely?
Truth holds power. People all to often see to it to impose on others out of fear of being imposed on themselves.