Manga, Manwah, and American "Manga"

[Liegenschonheit]

With Japanese manga flooding the markets all around the word and becomming immensely popular, it was only a matter of time before books with simmilar art became available from other countries.

Tokyopop, especially, has embraced manga from Korea and American artists and begun licensing and releasing their books alongside Japanese Manga. Korean manwah often has art on-par with Japanese manga. Some titles have a lot in common with Japanese titles as well, Such as "Snow Drop" and "ParaKiss", wherin both are both "fashion comics", the art is very simmilar (So-Na looks a great deal like Yukari), and have a story that has to do with modeling and school.

American "manga" is finding exceptance with fans of Japanese manga, particularly younger fans, though instead of trying to mirror Japanese manga entirely, some American "manga" artists incorporate elements of American cultire and comic-book style elements. For example, "Shutterbox" is an American "manga" released by Tokyopop, and the style of art is a great deal like Japanese manga, but at the same time the book has a certain "Sandman"-like quality, which is quite different than Japanese manga.

Some purists argue that everything other than real Japanese manga is junk, while some fans of the themes and styles that became popular in Japanese manga like to read new books that embrace them. So what is your take on Manwah and American "manga" being marketed alongside Japanese manga?

[Dtortot]

I voted: Japanese only, everything else is junk.

But I don't really think the rest is junk. I just don't like it. There is something for everyon out there in the vast and wide world, and manwah and amerimanga aren't my type of things. Manwah looks like a cheap attempt of manga and Amerimanga is even cheaper, yet I don't considere junk, I just considere Manga above the others.

Maybe I am a bit biased here towards manga, because I read it first and I am sure that tehre are some manwahs I might enjoy, but haven't really picked them up. And as the official Manga reviewer, I have to love it above the others, inlcuding anime.

[Junko]

While I'm not a purist, I've never been really interested in Manwah or American "manga". With Manwah I believe I could try harder to find something I like but with American "manga" it seems they are either trying to hard to mimic authentic manga or they are making a complete joke out of it.

With American "manga" I often see horrible art and stories (not all but many) that to me, give us a bad name as an anime fan. I have yet to come across a decent American "manga" yet and I doubt that after the few I have read that any interests will show for them.

[animefreek_CM]

Meh. I pobably wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between the three, much less express an opinion about which one is better.

As a fan of both American comics and manga, I think it would be hypocritical to say I only like Japanese manga and not 'Amerimanga,' as Dtortot put it.

[Otacon]

Well, i'm not a purist. To me, it' safe to say that American Manga looks good. From what I hear, the stories themselve arn't that bad either. As for Manga, to me, it has alot more story pattern than anime, and it can have alot better one shots, and usually be better than the anime.

[Kagome654]

I'll read anything, as long as it looks good. For the most part, this is speaking strictly in extremes of course, I like that North American artists are a tad more varied with their designs. Let's face it, a lot of manga looks the same. With North American artists adding...'Asian style,' for lack of a better term, to many of their titles I think the North American market is just getting another wonderful style to play around with.

[Dennis]

I will read anything that grabs and keeps my attention with a compelling story and believable characters. Whether it be Fujishima's Oh My Goddess! or Will Allison's Pervert Club, manga or comics are a visual medium to tell a story; nationality or point of origin should have no bearing.

[Chi]

Story wise I like anything that is good. Art wise I lean more toward Manga and Manwah. But then I've never really cared for the hard lines so many American comics use.

[KiraraKim]

Originally I was going to vote for the first option but not having really read any American comics in manga style or manwah titles that really wasn't fair. At this time I might prefer Manga but as long as something has a good story with compelling characters I'll read it. Afterall I would be a hypocrite for telling people that they should give anime/manga a chance because any medium can present a good story if I didn't give American "Manga" or Manwah a chance. So I chose the last option.

[jiffyjimbothe3]

I voted for Japanes only, I dont think everything else is junk, but its nothing that interests me personally. Ive actually never read anything else but manga. Really, I honestly think Ive never even read one single American comic book.

[Chi]

I voted for Japanes only, I dont think everything else is junk, but its nothing that interests me personally. Ive actually never read anything else but manga. Really, I honestly think Ive never even read one single American comic book.
Then how do you know if you will like it or not?

[Zero]

I believe the only Manwah I've read is Priest, and I've had an enjoyable run with the series so far, so I can't complain in concern to manwah in general. Ultimately, if any literature of any kind is good, in both its writing as well as graphical form, I care little concerning its manner of marketing. If, however, it seems obvious to myself that the said title is merely trying to mimic and milk the cashcow without any real artistic effort, I do hold an annoyance/resentment of such forms.

[Itachi Uchiha]

I'm willing to read anything. I have read so many books and manga that I have trouble finding something that I haven't read so I don't care where it came from, who wrote it, etc. I'm alwayz desperate for a new title that I haven't heard of.

[Chi]

I believe the only Manwah I've read is Priest, and I've had an enjoyable run with the series so far, so I can't complain in concern to manwah in general. Ultimately, if any literature of any kind is good, in both its writing as well as graphical form, I care little concerning its manner of marketing. If, however, it seems obvious to myself that the said title is merely trying to mimic and milk the cashcow without any real artistic effort, I do hold an annoyance/resentment of such forms.
I would have to agree. Most "American manga" as some call them. Seem to try too hard to copy regular manga. I've seen a very few titles that do their own thing that I'm thinking of getting.

[Kaito Fujiwara]

To be honest, I can't judge between nationalites, usually I don't pay attention to that. manga in my opinion (and I refuse to use the the terms "american manga" and/or "manwah") it's either good, bad, or subpar. this policy can also be applied with almost any media.

[DarkKanti]

I've read a two Manwah: Rebirth and Ragnorak, and I've enjoyed both quite a bit. In fact, at the time I didn't even realize the differerence between them and manga. I've tried reading Amerimanga though and I can easily say I wasn't impressed. I was actually quite dissapointed. So, I'm voting Japanese and Korean.

Edit- I do enjoy American comics, but not ones that try to copy anime style.

[Kaito Fujiwara]

I agree with you on the imitations. My main problem is that I keep comparing all of 'em [the american Manga] to megatokyo

[Junko]

The thing that gets me with the American manga is that the style tries so hard to immitate but it looks so... so... american...

I mean that's ok for maybe one or two series but when they all have that round, shiny coloring and retarded sweatdrops and nosebleeds for no reason it just grows on your nerves...

[JOJO]

Yeah, some comic books that use anime artwork are just trying to attrack fans, but most of them have an avarage story with pretty weak anime artwork, like Shidima.
But other comics like Transformers Generation 1 and Darkminds have succesfully use the anime style, and hopefully the newest comics will get better.

[Ritalin]

Why is there no "American only" or "Korean only"?

I voted anything, I don't care where it's from. To be honest though, I find more pleasure reading American comics/manga more than some Japanese manga. Korean manwah I haven't really read much of except for Ragnorak, but that's probably because I slowed down on manga/comic reading in general.

[Spilled Milk]

I voted the last one...the only american manga thats caught my interest is Biezenghast....alot of the art in american manga tends to be well...not that great and it kinda bugs me...I read alot of manwha my favorite manga is a manwha...I really like the art style that alot of the manwha seems to kind of share almost...but the majority of my manga is..well manga lol XD but yeah I whon't shun a good book just cuz its american.

[Freya]

idk i think all i read is Japanese Manga so... i think i've looked a some Korean manga but i'm not sure >.< so yeah.... but just because i only read japanese manga doesnt mean i think everything else is junk... i just havent gotten around to looking at the other stuff :p

[Liegenschonheit]

Why is there no "American only" or "Korean only"?

I voted anything, I don't care where it's from. To be honest though, I find more pleasure reading American comics/manga more than some Japanese manga. Korean manwah I haven't really read much of except for Ragnorak, but that's probably because I slowed down on manga/comic reading in general.


Well, I didnt add those choices because for the sake of this thread, I was more interested in the attitudes of fans of Japanese manga toward simmilar styles of art from other countries. While some people may prefer just Korean of just American, and since I wasn't really focusing on American comics other than the manga style ones, I wanted to narrow the focus of the poll a bit.

[jiffyjimbothe3]

Then how do you know if you will like it or not?
I never said I dont like it, I said it doesnt interest me.

[Ck_Kat]

I enjoy most anything with good characters and a good plots i like a korean manwah or what ever it's called Faeries landing it's rather good and i enjoy the characters ^^. I also believe Crescent Moon may be based off of a Korean or Chinese story line but i'm not sure.

[Mana]

I've yet to see a Korean "Manwah" Or American "Manga" that really tried to stand out on it's own instead of trying to be Japanese. And that's why I don't care for them much. Though, honestly, the Koreans are better about it than the Americans are.

[jetfire]

Any type of manga can be good. It just matters how good the storytelling, characters, art, etc, is. Japanese manga certainly has a classic feel to it, but some Amerimanga can put a nice twist on things. I'm not talking about the American equivalent to anime here, with their Transformers and Totally Spies crap. I'm talking about some good manga made by people outside of Japan, whether it's for sale, or online.

For example, check on this site for No Man's Land or Captain Nemo (the only two I've read so far). No Man's Land is great, and Nemo certainly holds it's own so far. These mangas are actually going for sale overseas: http://www.gomanga.com/

Or for some exceptional art that, in my opinion outdoes some anime shows, check out: http://www.fantasyrealmsonline.com/. If any of you think that all manga outside of Japan can have bad art, then check out Fantasy Realms, and you'll eat those words. Even online mangas by artists outside of Japan are worth checking out, and deserved to be published. Other online mangas I've seen like Flipside, Realms of Ishikaze and Eversummer Eve are pretty damn good. A Stranger In Paradise by Linuts here is even a great comic. So yes, Amerimanga can be just as good as Japanese Manga in my opinion. I hope to get my own Canadamanga finished someday. Damn thing has been taking me 3 years since I started college (no, not 3 years straight. Haha).

I also find, that with Amerimanga I've read, that the transition from panel to panel is less confusing. Sometimes in Japanese manga (from quite a few I've read), you'll see one panel, then another, but have no clue what has happened in between the 2 panels. Either there could be too big of a gap to show what has happened, or even random craziness can come from nowhere.

[Two-twenty]

I quite enjoy both manga and manwah, and I would give Amerimanga (as awful as that sounds) a go if the story's okay, but I'm yet to come across one. My beef with "western" manga is with the clashing styles.
The thing that gets me with the American manga is that the style tries so hard to immitate but it looks so... so... american...

I mean that's ok for maybe one or two series but when they all have that round, shiny coloring and retarded sweatdrops and nosebleeds for no reason it just grows on your nerves...
I think it's got more to do with the pannling. Although I haven't read too many American manga titles, so I may be completly off, but it seems to me that it doesn't flow the same as the Japanese and Korean counterparts, if they're going to use that type of artwork they can't keep it within the boxes as per comic books. It just looks so... American.

[Lupin the 3rd]

I really dont care what i read as long as its good. Usually i read Japanese Manga, but lately ive been reading a manwah from Korea called Preist and i have to say its pretty good!

[Seras]

I think all three have good stories and they all have ones that are crap. I've read Tokyopop's Rising Stars of Manga and seen stuff I'd buy the whole series and some I wouldn't use for kindling, and the same goes for manwah and manga.

[Junko]

I quite enjoy both manga and manwah, and I would give Amerimanga (as awful as that sounds) a go if the story's okay, but I'm yet to come across one. My beef with "western" manga is with the clashing styles.

I think it's got more to do with the pannling. Although I haven't read too many American manga titles, so I may be completly off, but it seems to me that it doesn't flow the same as the Japanese and Korean counterparts, if they're going to use that type of artwork they can't keep it within the boxes as per comic books. It just looks so... American.


Well another thing I saw in one a really long time ago (probably when they started coming out?) was that they would use regular american names ( I don't have a problem with that) but then the Japanese add ons (-chan, -san, -kun..etc.) and it just sounded retarded mixed with that god-awful coloring and style.

[Ren Saruwatari]

I may be wrong about this, but does it matter if where it comes from as long as it's good?

[darylcrowe]

Well another thing I saw in one a really long time ago (probably when they started coming out?) was that they would use regular american names ( I don't have a problem with that) but then the Japanese add ons (-chan, -san, -kun..etc.) and it just sounded retarded mixed with that god-awful coloring and style.
Yeah i feel you shouldn't mix culutral styles up as it degrades the peice of writing.

[Takeo Void]

american manga is inexpertly done, manhwa is easily identifiable, (not a compliment), and hey, the japanese made it first.

[Kagome654]

Well, I think calling itself Animanga is a little goofy, but I have no problem with American artists flirting with the typical manga style, infact since I generally think American comic artists are more creative with their designs I'd love to see how they spin the manga style and create something new. So long as they don't pretend to BE Japanese, like by throwing in 'Kun' and such, its fine. For example I think there's a Japanese influence in this scan;

Fear the Batgirl (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a200/retro_takeout/detail.jpg)

But its still distinctly American. It takes what I like most about both styles (the wide expressive Japanese style eyes and interesting hair) and adds more American details (look, their noses are different shapes! You could tell them apart if you stripped them naked and shaved their heads, unlike a lot of manga girls...) and the combination looks GOOD.

[Pedro The Hutt]

That's down to debate and personal opinion. XD Personally I can't stand the bizarre american-comic/manga mix.

But as it stands, I probably could appreciate good and well written Manwah and Amerimanga, but I wouldn't call them manga. XD That title I keep reserved for well, manga.

[Sakito]

I have never even seen a korean manga book so i would have to say that i only like the japanese and american manga, Manga alone is gaining more and more popularity while the other crap is just waiting.

[Kagome654]

That's down to debate and personal opinion. XD Personally I can't stand the bizarre american-comic/manga mix.



Just out of curiosity, what don't you like about it? Obviously I'm not looking to argue, I'm just interested as to your reasons.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Well, in manga the artists generally know where and where not to add details. Where-as in american comics, ever since the 40s in certain styles they wanted to make every little bit detailed, such as the nose and lips, which in my opinion makes the picture as a whole, quite ugly. And that, as that batgirl picture points out, still is prevalent in this comic/manga crossover style.
But hey, that's just me.

[Kagome654]

Hn, I don't think they overuse the details, infact the opposite is my major problem with manga artists, in many cases everyone's too generic, shave most bishoujo bald and strip em' and alot of the time you'll be unable to tell them apart because they all use the same basic template for their faces and bodies, large eyes, tiny little mouths, almost no lips, long, thin legs, etc...not only is it unrealistic to have everyone basically look the same, but it doesn't say much for the creativity of the artists. Obviously though there are many, many exceptions to this, I'm speaking VERY generally.

I suppose it just comes down to the fact that different people find different things aesthetically pleasing *stating the obvious*

[Pedro The Hutt]

Ah, agreeing to disagree is a wonderful thing isn't it?

[Mad Hatter]

Some (note that I said some, not all) of you guys who are criticizing anything that isn't Japanese-made sound like a bunch of little children. Why should it matter what nationality of people made the comic? Sure, there are the major changes in style that differentiate the nationalities, but that shouldn't mean that you shouldn't read them. There are some EXCELLENT manwha that I have read and I personally like them better than any manga that I have read. While I have not read any 'Amerimanga' yet, I still would not criticize against it. (I'm currently thinking about picking up Bizenghast.)

[Kagome654]

Well, to be fair, Mad Hatter, most of the people in this thread haven't had much negative to say about American and Korean comics, the only thing they seem to dislike is when one attempts to adopt the style of manga without inserting any creativity of their own. Being influenced by a stye isn't quite the same as basically ripping it off. Though I suppose there's some ambiguity there.

[Mad Hatter]

Well, to be fair, Mad Hatter, most of the people in this thread haven't had much negative to say about American and Korean comics, the only thing they seem to dislike is when one attempts to adopt the style of manga without inserting any creativity of their own. Being influenced by a stye isn't quite the same as basically ripping it off. Though I suppose there's some ambiguity there.I'm not talking to those people. Yes, I can understand that there are artists who try to 'adopt' styles of the Japanese manga artists and fail miserably at it. Also, I notice that this has been the case with much 'Amerimanga', but that still shouldn't prohibit others from reading it.

Who I was directing my earlier post to was the people who argue that 'since the Japanese made it first, no one else should attempt to make manga'. Just think, the style of 'Rock and Roll' music was originated in the United States, right? If the style hadn't spread to other parts of the world, we wouldn't have the diversity in sound that we have today.

I don't mean to offend anyone with my words.

[DarkKanti]

I don't believe anyone said, "since the Japanese made it first, no one else should attempt to make manga." On this subject though (Yes, I've already answered and voted on the poll, but I'd like to explaiin it in a bit more detail) I've read a few American "Manga" in the past (and by read I mean read half and then put it down), so I think I've given it a fair enough shot to impress me. Nothing has so far though. I've read some Manwha and enjoyed that, but American versions have totally failed to impress and as such have garnered a low opinion from me. Maybe there are some good American "manga" out there, but I have yet to find it.

[Kagome654]

I'm still a little confused (so what else is new?). What exactly makes something an American manga? Does it have to be released by TokyoPop and/or call itself that, or does it just look like it has the same basic style? For example Marvel's Sentinel (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/PaulSebert/sentinel-20051014041522029.jpg) comics look very manga-ish to me, does that mean they're the dreaded 'Animanga' or just someone playing with the style? How big do the eyes have to be before its manga-ish? Am I too fond of rhetorical questions?

[Mad Hatter]

To be more specific, DarkKanti, I was directing most of my words towards the post made by Takeo Void who said, "american manga is inexpertly done, manhwa is easily identifiable, (not a compliment), and hey, the japanese made it first." By what he said, I interpreted like they were saying that no one else can create art in the 'manga/anime' style except for the Japanese. I may have been more general in my earlier comments and now I want to clear things up.

To answer Kagome's question, I would have to say that I can't answer that because I don't know how to. Cultures adapt elements of art from one another and they adapt it to their own artistic way.

[Roark]

I'm not talking to those people. Yes, I can understand that there are artists who try to 'adopt' styles of the Japanese manga artists and fail miserably at it. Also, I notice that this has been the case with much 'Amerimanga', but that still shouldn't prohibit others from reading it.

Who I was directing my earlier post to was the people who argue that 'since the Japanese made it first, no one else should attempt to make manga'. Just think, the style of 'Rock and Roll' music was originated in the United States, right? If the style hadn't spread to other parts of the world, we wouldn't have the diversity in sound that we have today.

I don't mean to offend anyone with my words.

The problem comes from that a lot of us don't see manga as a set of mere stylistic conventions or techniques. To some, what makes manga is the whole experience: art, character, plot, layout... and most importantly, the structure of the mind that creates them.

That last is really what sets manga aside as a separate side of comics. In a lot of ways, we can continue your rock n' roll analogy: Anyone can make rock music worldwide. Rockabilly is something that hails from the U.S. south. People can copy the stylistic parts of rockabilly, but it comes across a bit off.

Comics are comics, and I enjoy many kinds. A lot of my manga enjoyment comes from the foreign elements of it, or seeing the west interpreted by the east. As far as I'm concerned, what makes manga worthy of a word aside from "comics" is that separation introduced by WHO created it.

For reference, what I get out of most Amerimanga utilizing the "manga style" (I use the term loosely, as manga has numerous styles and no real standard) is an attempt to cash in on popularity at worst or borrowing style without regard to substance at best. There's a reason most manga are drawn as they are; most Amerimanga artists replicate the style and disregard reason.

I also don't mean to offend; this is just a subject I've been interested in since joining this site.

[Kagome654]

So what you're saying, Roark, and excuse me if I misinterpreted you, is that its mainly the fact that its foreign, and thus the creator has a different mindset than North American writers/artists (due to their different cultural identity and background) that sets manga apart? Basically what I'm trying to ask is that manga then is not unique in that regard, you'd feel the same thing separates, say, a French 'comic' like Blacksad from a North American comic?

I'm not trying to be polemical, I just want to make sure I've wrapped my little brain around it and understand.

[Mad Hatter]

You took the words right out of my mouth, Kagome.

[MasterRahath]

I love any type of anime/manga work as long as it keeps me entertained. Something that boring makes me go to sleep.:headbang:

[Roark]

So what you're saying, Roark, and excuse me if I misinterpreted you, is that its mainly the fact that its foreign, and thus the creator has a different mindset than North American writers/artists (due to their different cultural identity and background) that sets manga apart? Basically what I'm trying to ask is that manga then is not unique in that regard, you'd feel the same thing separates, say, a French 'comic' like Blacksad from a North American comic?

I'm not trying to be polemical, I just want to make sure I've wrapped my little brain around it and understand.
Well... yes. That's pretty much it. What makes manga manga - what sets it apart - is that foreign creation. Different people in different cultures think in different ways. People write different if they're writing for people with shared cultural backgrounds and not for world-wide consumption.

I may add that this view has large precedent in literature, cinema, and music. Russian novels, especially those in the 19th century from the likes of Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Chekov, etc., just read different than, say, British novels of the same era. Their worldview is different, what they focus on is different, their protagonists are different. Music: listen to Beethoven, Wagner, or any other Romantic period composer's music. More modern: look at the difference in British rock vs. American vs. J-Rock, or American house music vs. more Eurobeat/British Trance. Cinema: French films, and 'nuff said.

A lot of art is a reflection of one's culture, either following it or reacting against it. In manga, a major way this comes through is a lot of the reflection on Japan's Westernization (mostly Americanization), power fantasies aimed at a male populace in a primarily pacifist culture, or lamentations on the loss of Japan's military might and predictions of future rises to power (Battle Ship Yamato, Macross, and Gundam contain large elements of this).

This doesn't even take into account traditional elements of Japanese literature that crop up in manga. Or the slice-of-life elements you see in things like Maison Ikokku (festivals, new-years, school exams) that seem haphazardly thrown in to Western manga attempts (Megatokyo is a prime culprit in this).

I hope this clarifies things. You didn't come across as polemic at all, really. It seems that these types of threads turn into arguments between two types of elitists - one group that thinks themselves 1337 for reading things with obviously superior art/plot/characters/whatever, and another group that thinks themselves more elite for calling all manga "comics" and "not discriminating". (Thanks Mana for pointing this out to me) I like to think of myself as adding a nifty third view point.

[Kagome654]

That does clear it up a lot, thank you kindly. So what it comes down to is that there is not a difference between the two that can be so easily described as a difference of styles, maturity, etc, rather it comes down to potentially different reoccurring themes due to a difference of history or culture and other things that are different in...ugh....for lack of a better word, 'spirit,' rather than anything more concrete.

I tend to become defensive in topics that discuss manga compared to North American comics simply because I am such a huge fans of both and such discussions sometimes end up with each side attempting to completely tear down the other. *sniffle* All nerds should get along...

Offtopic, I love Dostoyevsky ^^ I saw a stage version of The Brothers Karamazov over the summer, Yay

[Roark]

That does clear it up a lot, thank you kindly. So what it comes down to is that there is not a difference between the two that can be so easily described as a difference of styles, maturity, etc, rather it comes down to potentially different reoccurring themes due to a difference of history or culture and other things that are different in...ugh....for lack of a better word, 'spirit,' rather than anything more concrete.

That's pretty much it. I once defined anime as "Animation created by a primarily Japanese creative force intended for consumption by a primarily Japanese Audience." I still hold it, because it cuts all the crap about maturity, art styles, or "being made in Japan" and focusses on what I think is the only relevant aspect. It also settles "The Last Unicorn" question in that, yes, it was animated by the Japanese, but it's not anime. It fails the second part of the criteria.

I didn't like the concrete diferences because none of them were universal. Different manga-ka use different styles. There are manga just as stupid and drawn out as any Marvel/DC work. The U.S. has some incredibly deep books as well (random plug for Bone - best U.S. comic EVER). Also, a lot of the people who use the concrete differences attach value judgements like "better" or "mature" to them, which I just don't like.


I tend to become defensive in topics that discuss manga compared to North American comics simply because I am such a huge fans of both and such discussions sometimes end up with each side attempting to completely tear down the other. *sniffle* All nerds should get along...

Offtopic, I love Dostoyevsky ^^ I saw a stage version of The Brothers Karamazov over the summer, Yay

I respect both sides. I just tend to find some manga more fascinating, mostly for the vantage point they provide - very non-Western.

And Dostoyevsky = pwn. Crime and Punishment is beautiful. Although, nothing quite tops Anna Karenina by Tolstoy.

[Liegenschonheit]

Ah, Roark makes a series of valid points, cultural influence is indeed one of the definining characteristics of almost any art form. However, on some level, Roark, you failed to answer the question.

The point of this thread is not "are amerimanga and manga the same thing", it's "will you read american or korean comics that have been influenced by manga created in japan".

Another defining characteristic in art forms is influence. Would J-rock sound the same if they had never heard american rock and roll? Would the Flemish paintings during the English Tudor period have been the same without the Italian Rennaissance? So, is it necessarily a bad thing that American and Korean artists have been influenced by something that had previously been uniquely japanese?

Of course, some American attempts at "manga" are obviously nothing more than an attempt to capitalize on the popularity of manga in America, but what of the comic artists who are simply influenced by the style? Is their work invalid because it was not born from the same cultural background as manga? Is the incorporation of certain stylistic elements that were hitherto exclusive to a certain artform into another artform taboo in the comic industry? Or is your beef with it that it is marketed side by side with Japanese manga?

*edit* And for the record, I don't think manga is any more or less valid than american comic books.

[Roark]

Ah, Roark makes a series of valid points, cultural influence is indeed one of the definining characteristics of almost any art form. However, on some level, Roark, you failed to answer the question.

The point of this thread is not "are amerimanga and manga the same thing", it's "will you read american or korean comics that have been influenced by manga created in japan".


Honestly, not until one is strongly recommended to me by a trusted source. Seeing the style copied without regard to content has been my primary experience with American comics influenced by manga. Unfair? Maybe. I really haven't seen a strong counter-example to break me from my bias. And I'll still be somewhat put off if the author consciously persists in calling it manga based on style alone.


Another defining characteristic in art forms is influence. Would J-rock sound the same if they had never heard american rock and roll? Would the Flemish paintings during the English Tudor period have been the same without the Italian Rennaissance? So, is it necessarily a bad thing that American and Korean artists have been influenced by something that had previously been uniquely japanese?


I don't think I ever said that it was a bad thing on a fundamental level, just that it's bad when it's just style appropriation. It'll take a while for the works to mature into something worthwhile, for something unique to develop.


Of course, some American attempts at "manga" are obviously nothing more than an attempt to capitalize on the popularity of manga in America, but what of the comic artists who are simply influenced by the style? Is their work invalid because it was not born from the same cultural background as manga? Is the incorporation of certain stylistic elements that were hitherto exclusive to a certain artform into another artform taboo in the comic industry? Or is your beef with it that it is marketed side by side with Japanese manga?


My beef is that it is marketed AS manga, not just side by side with it. The work isn't invalid automatically, but the cash-in properties make it hard for me to take it seriously. There's no taboo being broken here except that against sacrificing stuff like plot, character, meaning, and worth-Roark's-time-to read for the sake of using a flashy style to make a quick buck.


*edit* And for the record, I don't think manga is any more or less valid than american comic books.

After reading some atrotious manga, I definately agree.

[Kagome654]

After reading some atrotious manga, I definately agree.

*prompts* And some really EXCELLENT North American comics, right? *annoying*

Again, I like the strange hybrids that are popping up. With titles like Ultimate Spider-Man that have a certain manga style influence to the art, but that's where it ends, no seldom celebrating of White day, no kitsune spirits, just Spidey with a wiry frame and wide eyes tossing one liners at badly dressed super villains. However I think that's different than packaging a North American comic in the TokyoPop binding and placing it amoung the manga and adding random suffixes to names...(especially if its like 'Kyle-chan!) that's just...ehh....

[‚È‚¾‚êFROST]

From what i've read, Americans can make some pretty good manga; not as good as the Japanese, but close, very close.

Never read Manhwa, so no opinion. Sometimes I get a bit of pity for the Koreans. with alot of western culture focusing on Japan as a model eastern nation, the Koreans must feel a bit awkward. I dont think an inferiority complex is the best word to describe it, but something related.

[Moku-jin]

I voted for Japanese and Korean.

My preference tends towards manga for the most part,
but I love Korean soonjung manwha!
in particular 'Narration of Love at 17', 100% Perfect Girl' and 'i.n.v.u.'

As for American Manga,
I've never really been a fan of US media anyway
so drawing it in a familiar style isn't likely to appeal.


as an aside
i.n.v.u. was the first Manwha to be published in English in 2002
however manwha has existed for a lot longer...
'Narration of Love at 17' for example was first published in 1991.

Much like Japan, Korean Manwha began around 1909 and the birth of their contemporary style,
the 'Golden Age of Manwha', occured during the late 50's and early 60's.
see here for some manwha facts : capcold.net/eng/blog/?page_id=9

With this in mind I'd imply that Manwha is a self sufficient industry in it's own right,
American Manga still requires manga as a crutch even in it's own backyard.
It's not terrible, but still in it's infancy - we might get some great stuff in 5 to 10 years...

[laborpilot86]

Other than anything by Osamu Tezuka-sensei, I don't read that much manga. I find the right-to-left formating very difficult to follow for some reason.

American com..., erm ahem, 'graphic novels', are a different story. X-Men (especially Chris Claremont's 1976-1991 run on Uncanny and Joss Whedon's 2004-2007 run on Astonishing) wins every time, but I've also liked 300, Persepolis and Maus.

I'm the first person to admit though that manga have long surpassed american comics in terms of both quality and diversity of content.

American super-hero comics in particular are in serious danger of being driven to extintion by the rise of manga in the U.S since 2000.

[Shadowmage]

"Japanese only, everything else is junk"

Scratch the "everything is junk" part. I only read Japanese manga and that's only because I happen to like the anime associated with the manga (ie Fruits Basket, Berserk).

[Illjwamh]

Why should I give a crap where it's from? Stuff could be Lebanese for all I care. If it's good, I'll read it.

[Roentgen]

My Vote : Japanese and Korean only

I think it's a mistake to liken American Manga to Korean Manhwa.

Ameri-manga is a deliberate (largely fan-based) move to reproduce the Japanese aesthetic.
In particular, Tokyopop's "Rising Star's" series is all in aid of helping fan's,
who've slaved over 'How to Draw Manga' textbooks once too often,
a chance to play out their little manga-ka fantasy
(with Tokyopop making a killing having no rights disputes to worry about).
Though I feel for the artists,
I can't help but feel there efforts may have been better rewarded if they had
been steered towards the comic and graphic novel market
(after all it would seem American Manga equates to Comics drawn in America
and packaged as a Tankoban).

I'm not against comic artists adapting to a pleasing style,
but (as Raork rightly pointed out) too many 'chan's and 'baka's has lowered my respect.

-----------------------

The birth of Manhwa (on the other hand) was actually similar to the birth of Manga,
with American occupation being the catalyst for it's creation.

Prior to WWII Korea's newspapers were littered with 4 panel gag strips
and with the World War ending Japan's occupation,
followed by a civil war ending in 1953 it's easy to see where
Korea picked up it's signature Mangwha style.

You see the USA occupied South Korea after WWII
(the Soviet Union occupying the North) and also were involved in the
Korean Civil War (1950 - 1953).
Would it then surprise you that once all the fighting had ended a
surge in Mangwha (known as Mangwha's Golden Age) occured in the late 50's.

The unfortunate thing is that it took Manga's popularity in the West
to take hold before any Manwha was to appear on our shores.
The first Manwha to be published in English was 'i.n.v.u' in 2002
approximately a decade after the first manga.
Thus the belief has tended towards Manwha being a copycat branch of manga.

Inspiration is one thing but, as Manga has proven,
it can takes years for a seperate form of media to develop.
Manwha (in my opinion) has achieved it's own singular status,
I prefer soonjung to shoujo at the moment...

Some titles have a lot in common with Japanese titles as well, Such as "Snow Drop" and "ParaKiss", wherin both are both "fashion comics", the art is very simmilar (So-Na looks a great deal like Yukari), and have a story that has to do with modeling and school.


Note:
1999/04/24 - Snow Drop's first publication in Korea
2000/04/?? - ParaKiss' original run in Zipper begins...

Snow Drop got there a whole year earlier

So in short Manga and Manhwa (and maybe Manhua)
have had a long history to hone the skills inspired by others.
American Manga has a long way to go till it finds it's feet,
but maybe in a few decades there will be a fresh new face to the
American Comic industry.

[laborpilot86]

American superhero comics could certainly use some fresh faces, thats for sure.

[bernadotte]

the whole world is aware if this manga phenomenon so why should it be limited to the cultures that created this type of comics?

but should i limit myself to French comics if i thought i liked it better than, say, the style of American comics? i would say yes to that. still, the better part of me says it depends on what i am looking for in a manga/comics. culture or entertainment/story.