Rozen Maiden 2nd Season in the works [Archive]

loner

10-22-2005, 04:07 PM

YAY! FINALLY!

Again, I've been anticipating this since I finished Rozen Maiden. I've heard plans of a second season, and knew it was going to happen anyways since the first season focused more on Jun and sorta neglected the dolls. Now that Jun's problems have been properly dealt with, it's time to come back to the mysterious Alice Game, and give more development to the dolls themselves, their relationship before they came to Jun's Doll HQ.

So, we have Ep. 1:

OP is typically filled with wild frenzy, as Ali Project comes back with another rather psychotic song, this one even outdoing the infamous 'hag song' of the original series. However, this one is also more listenable, and doesn't kill your eardrums. Sequence is filled with even more disturbing imagery, with the dolls in junk state and all that. Freaky stuff.

The very first part of the series disturbed me. The 'Father' is finally shown, though his face is still not revealed. The making of Shinku though...I mean yeah, she is a doll, and that's how dolls are made. But these dolls are so humanlike, that when their 'dollness' gets exposed, it's rather hard to take.

The episode then doesn't waste any time to get things rolling. All the dolls are back with their trademark hijinks, with Suiseiseki going at war with the 'Chibi clan', and Shinku slapping Jun (:D). And yeah, everybody loves Detective Kun-Kun and the flower-shapped eggs on top of hamburgers. Jun is failing at math like me. But without much ado, it gets the story started again, with Shinku showing more weakness than she did throughout the first 10 episodes of Rozen Maiden. Suigintou's 'death' affected her much more than it was shown at the end of the first series. This series will be Shinku-centric , and this can only be good for the series.

Anyways, Barashuishou is introduced as the 7th Rozen Maiden, and her existence is obviously not known by the other dolls. The Alice Game is after all the doll version of Battle Royale. And Barashuishou is kinda like the psycho murderer who loves killing that gets thrown into the game to instill fear and keep it going. This will get interesting.

Excellent first episode IMO.

Sorrow-kun

10-22-2005, 04:52 PM

Did you watch the raw? Since it doesn't look like anyone's subbed this yet.

Anyway, to say that I'm excited about this is the understatement of the millennium.

Shadowmage

10-22-2005, 05:56 PM

Episode 1

Intro
...
I simply loved the music for the original music, especially the intro. This sequel does not disappoint as it boasts a beautiful intro. Both visually and acoustically, this intro is very much a masterpiece. Unlike the first show, the animation is a lot more abstract. Like Loner said, there are a myriad of disturbing imagery. I think the animation itself is a piece of art for the intro. While the art itself lacks a lot of detail, everything is fast paced, and the lack of tangibility gives it a very moody feel. All in all, this is one music I rewatched several times.

Part I
The animation remains pretty much the same as last time. Shinku is given more background information in the first three minutes than the entire previous series. Like Loner said, the creator seems slightly odd. All the raw parts for the dolls give off an eerie feel; however, this does not last long. Once again the series kicks backs to mundane everyday life... Well as normal as Jun is getting it. All the quirks are back along with that odd puppet show all the dolls fawn over.

Eyecatch
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/vlcsnap-7076659.png
This reminds me of Speed Grapher for some odd reason... Very freaky.

Part II
Well, Shinku is shown to have more vulnerabilities than one would expect. Despite her calm composure during the first half, she eventually loses face. Complimenting this is the background music, which is absolutely wonderful; it does a great job setting the ambience. As expected, the next Rozen Maiden is introduced... The plot is thickening once again.

Eyecatch
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/vlcsnap-7077019.png
Human feelings?

Outro
Like the intro, the music is above-par. The animation is once again a piece of art. In general, I like light and abstract colors. The lines get a lot finer during the end.

Interest: 5/5
Grade: 4/5

Great music, beautiful animation, the good old antics... What more can you want?

loner

10-22-2005, 07:48 PM

Did you watch the raw? Since it doesn't look like anyone's subbed this yet.

Anyway, to say that I'm excited about this is the understatement of the millennium.

Uh...Chinese sub. That's all I have to say on that subject.

Shadowmage

11-01-2005, 08:55 PM

It's sad that no one has picked this up... I don't know Japanese save a few words I learned from anime, but I'm still watching the raw.

Anways...

Episode 2

They should have renamed this Rozen Maiden: The Second Raid. (Heck even that school girl around Jun reminds me of one of the Chinese girls.) Shinku is showing a great deal of vulnerability in these two episodes. The polarization between the comic scenes and the serious ones are less noticeable compared to the original series. The overall ambience is dark yet the little antics are still fun at the same time. To be honest, the long monologue about dolls gave me a deja vous of Angelic Layer... I wonder if the two shop owners have anything to do with Rozen Maidens.

Sorrow-kun

11-01-2005, 09:04 PM

Damnit SM, don't do that!

I saw new activity in the RM thread, and my immediate reaction was "OMG OMG OMG OMG SOMEONE'S FINALLY SUBBED IT". Now I'm all disappointed. You just got my hopes up. :(

loner

11-01-2005, 10:39 PM

Learn Chinese Sorrow.

Ep. 2

Like people have said, this is a set up episode. Shinku and Jun's roles are reversed in this series. Shinku is the one being stubborn and a sociopath, while Jun is trying to give her advice. Jun's the main character last season, but Shinku is taking over now. Jun's problem was the main plot of last season, but Shinku's problem (Alice Game) is the main plot of this one.

The shopkeepers...people noticed that the clerk kinda looks like the rabbit guy in Barashuishou's dreamscape, while Enju, the dollmaker, resembles 'Father'. It's an interesting idea.

Next episode: Kanaria. Fun will resume. There must be an episode like ep. 5 (War of the Stairs) in Traumend.

Ghostmaster

11-02-2005, 05:11 AM

Sorrow-kun

11-03-2005, 07:27 PM

Shadowmage

11-03-2005, 07:29 PM

OMG!!!!

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/339/11310545356544zr.th.jpg (http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/339/11310545356544zr.jpg)

Seriously, someone just kill me now, and revive me again Dokuro-chan style when the subs are released.

Okay, I think you should just get the raws now...

The Japanese really isn't that hard (heck even I could understand the gist).

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/vlcsnap-77120.png
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/vlcsnap-77608.png

Shadowmage fans the fire.

loner

11-05-2005, 01:14 AM

Ep.3

Detective Shinku!!!

Not as funny as the Suiseiseki-centric ep. 5 of original, but still lol-inducing. Kanaria is clutzy yet ambitious doll bent on world domination! Heh. Sad how she is the 'oldest sister', yet gets no respect. The other dolls don't even remember her.

Wow Souseiseki showed that she can be just as commanding, if not more than Shinku. The way she just took over during Shinku's investigation was impressive. Heh, and Shinku doesn't like that very much XD. No one should be able to challenge her no. 1 position in the I <3 Kun Kun fanclub!

Souseiseki seems to be much more assertive in this episode, and her character is actually being developed during this what seems to be just a comedy relief/char. intro episode. This makes sense, because:

Next episode could very well be her last.

In fact, even though this was a funny episode, I can't help but feel sad about what happened at the end of the episode. The mood suddenly changes from relaxed to tense, as the coming of Kanaria signifies the beginning of the Alice Game. This feels just like ep. 16 of Mai Hime: your last chance to have fun with these characters, before they gradually suffer and "die" (even though those in Mai HiME didn't die, but that's another story). I dare say that the relaxed comedy that's in this episode won't show up a lot in the rest of the series, as the dolls get into Dollander mode.

Edit: KUN KUN HENSHIN!! That's the best 'magical girl' henshin EVER.

ShinoMatrix

11-05-2005, 06:27 AM

What are you people doing to us?!!!!!!!!!

I'm so afraid to read whatever you wrote because I just sooooooo want to see this for myself first before I do any kind of discussion... MAAAAAAAAAAN!

Raws... raws... *gnaws arm*

Maybe I should *ahem* try my luck at subbing?

* ShinoMatrix imagines a show turning very seedy immediately

loner

11-05-2005, 09:49 AM

Ai, I'm only doing this because Shadowmage is too. I'll start after this episode, because the important stuff is about to start, and I don't want to spoil you on that.

ShinoMatrix

11-05-2005, 08:51 PM

Hahaha...

* ShinoMatrix imagines entire thread on spoiler tag...

It's cool dude... I think I'm more just going to refrain from reading this till I see it for myself...

Linuts

11-05-2005, 08:57 PM

OMG Fansub finally out!

I agree, the first few scenes were a little disturbing. All those doll parts seem so human in an eerie way. But we got a sense of how Shinku cameot life.

They moved pretty fast in the first ep. I didn't expect to see an evil doll so soon. And once again, the new addition has a kick-a$$ design!

Music, again, is original and upbeat. The opening animation is something to remember as well. I am very satisfied :D.

Now someone needs to slow down Shadowmage and loner until we can catch up to them :P.

Sorrow-kun

11-05-2005, 11:26 PM

OMG Fansub finally out!I read this, and I almost started crying from happiness.

* Sorrow-kun acquires

ShinoMatrix

11-06-2005, 03:44 AM

* ShinoMatrix does the same

Ah, the system works :D

Sorrow-kun

11-06-2005, 04:21 AM

Finally, after all this time I get to see the first ep. And I certainly wasn't disappointed. It had the exact same perfect mix of comedy, action and drama that made the first series so awesome. I also think this first episode has shown potential for this series to be better than the first.

OP and ED sequences are great. I noticed they used the same artist to compose the OP song as last time. Good thing, the first OP song worked so well, so it makes sense. Was it just me, or was there a serious amount of Shinku in the OP sequence as well? ED song and sequence are great as well... the sequence is particularly great and, yet again, I find myself preferring the ED song to the OP. Other music: for the most part, exceptional, until I started noticing a massive amount of reused tunes from the first series. Generally when sequels do this, I don't mind, but for some reason it didn't sit well with me this time around. I'm not sure why either... I certainly never had any qualms with the music in the first series.

I'm not sure what to say about the animation... it just didn't seem as clean as the original series, but I somehow suspect it was partly due to some particularly crappy encoding from the fansubbers.

The pacing in the first episode was excellent. A massive amount happened, but it never became overbearing or difficult to follow. Hina Ichigo and Jun are starting to wise up to Suisei Seki. Like mentioned, Shinku shows an interesting side to her character. She makes a good point as well... for all of Suigin Tou's antagonistic actions in her ambition to win the Alice Game, she was, after all, their sister, and I'd imagine having to end her own sister wouldn't have been the easiest thing ever for Shinku. I'm happy that this particular issue was explored, and I'm kinda hoping it gets a more thorough and proper treatment some time in the near future.

I'm a little confused as to why, in the next episode preview, Shinku fights against Bara-suishou, as, at the moment, I can't particularly see any real reason why they should fight. Oh well, I guess I have to wait until the next episode to find out. I'm also interested in finding out what the deal is with Frank, there. Shinku seems to hint that she knows all about him... but we're pretty much in the dark about him at the moment.

All up, great stuff so far. I'm very confident that this series is going to be filled with some serious awesomeness.

aeroshadow

11-06-2005, 10:09 AM

>_<

That took forever, but it was worth the wait. I'm sort of in a slump when it comes to anime right now, as whenever a new episode of a show I'm following is released, I end up too lazy to watch it, as if doing so is almost a chore.

Anyways, this broke through the barrier with it's captivating opening and the interesting scenes showing Shinku's creator. Everything after that was nice, with the same atmosphere as the original Rozen Maiden, always transitioning from "serious" to not.

...

The voices seem a little different to me. Maybe it's because I haven't watched Rozen Maiden for awhile.

Shadowmage

11-06-2005, 10:59 AM

I'm not sure what to say about the animation... it just didn't seem as clean as the original series, but I somehow suspect it was partly due to some particularly crappy encoding from the fansubbers.
It's not partially; it's all the subbers' fault. They compressed a 230 meg file into 175 megs... (Note the first Rozen Maiden was encoded to about 225 megs per episode hence the disparity.) I was balking at the quality difference when I saw the subbed version... The ironic thing is that the raw of episode 2 is compressed to 145 megs, but it still had sharper pictures than the subbed episode 1. Therefore, I justifiably say that it's all the subber's fault.
/Shadowmage gets off of soap box

Okay on another note, the subbers did a good job save the animation quality degregation. My opinion of the first episode did not change too much after watching this. The comedic moments and the more serious moments had a greater effect since I actually could understand exactly what they were saying. (These characters are easy to read, so it doesn't take much to understand what they say... Except that rabbit. I didn't understand him even in English.)

loner

11-06-2005, 12:18 PM

No, the rabbit is supposed to be indecipherable for now. Only Shinku and Barashuishou get him.

Shadowmage

11-06-2005, 06:10 PM

No, the rabbit is supposed to be indecipherable for now. Only Shinku and Barashuishou get him.
Well then again, the riddle speaking person is typically used for foreshadowing. He'll probably make more sense later on.

Sorrow-kun

11-08-2005, 06:12 AM

Episode 2 watched. I almost have more comments about the fansubbers than the episode itself.

For those who aren't in the know, this release was subbed in English by a Japanese fansubbing outfit. I found it quite interesting to see the slight differences in how Japanese fansubbers interpret things compared to the English fansubbers we're used to. Other than the frequent spelling/grammar mistake which could probably be forgiven (although I will take up their "offer" and delete the file... maybe not in 24 hours, but certainly when a big name quality subber makes a release worthy of keeping) it wasn't a totally bad release (better than most speed subbers). Interesting to note that the names were translated as well... Shinku = Red, Hina Ichigo = Berry, Bara-suishou = Rose Crystal, etc, etc. I'm also a bit curious about who exactly the episode was subbed for, since an admin from the site that we do not talk about actually found the sub, and posted it, as opposed to the regular process where fansubbers submit releases to the site. Considering how vastly separate Japanese internet and English internet can seem at times (I know it's the same internet, but the language barrier does a great job at keeping the two seemingly separate from each other), it makes me highly suspicious that the release wasn't really intended for an English speaking audience.

As far as the episode itself is concerned, it was the standard ball-is-rolling episode. I think the most interesting thing about it (other than Suisei Seki's antagonism of Hina Ichigo... she's such a bitch, but that's why we love her) was Sousei Seki's demonstration (again) of being quite sharp and on the ball regarding Shinku's demeaner. Not a lot else to comment on other than the presence that looks suspiciously like the creator in the doll shop... inevitably this will turn into something later on.

Oh, and the ED song/sequence still rules.

ShinoMatrix

11-08-2005, 06:21 AM

Wait...episode 2... you watched the .rmvb version?

* ShinoMatrix keeps waiting

Sorrow-kun

11-08-2005, 06:48 AM

That is correct. It's not exactly what I'd call a speed sub since it's been some 3 weeks since the episode aired. But, like I said, I wouldn't keep it.

Shadowmage

11-08-2005, 05:53 PM

Episode 3 (I hate waiting:))

This is another fun episode that keeps the story moving along. Once again, there is a new face and a new predicament. This is one of the "cute" episodes that makes the Rozen Maiden franchise so loveable. Anyways, as Loner said, the story is about to boost into high gear. I wonder what the body count will be... :eek5:

Shadowmage

11-09-2005, 06:18 PM

Episode 2 (subbed)

Okay, a lot things made more sense... It seems that this is really another staging episode where everyone is introduced. It's interesting to review an episode after watching an episode ahead. Now that I know that Shinku has told everyone about the 7th Maiden, the future events are making more sense.

Anways, here is the best scene so far in the show:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/vlcsnap-110387.png
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/vlcsnap-110526.png
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Shadowmage_Shin/vlcsnap-111053.png
(I love how she says it in a "as matter of fact" manner)

loner

11-09-2005, 07:26 PM

Heh Nori is a lot worse than that in the RM manga, apparently. When she first saw Shinku, she thought Jun has got a nice doll to satisfy his adolescent needs. A point quickly taken by hundreds of hungry loli doujin artists who want a way around the law.

Shadowmage

11-09-2005, 07:32 PM

Sorrow-kun

11-22-2005, 01:55 AM

Watched episode 3. Yesterday in fact, but I'm only commenting now.

Funny episode, although not as funny as the stairs in season 1. Holy crap Hina Ichigo can make a hell of a lot of noise when she wants to. And Suiseiseki's method for dealing with the annoying doorbell ringer was brilliant. As was Shinku's reaction to having her investigation hijacked. In a way, it really shows an interesting side to Shinku's character, ie that she doesn't react well to having her position as the "leader" doll threatened. It's interesting, considering that I recently read a fascinating spiel on Shinku's character from a Shinku-fanboy on 4chan /a/, stating that her character is very proper, but she also has a prominent inner-child which manifests itself in her devotion to Kun-kun, among other things. I think this particular scene (as well as being particularly funny) shows both sides of her appearing at the same time.

Kanaria is insane. Another thing I saw on 4chan /a/ was an apt description of her: she's a combination of Hina Ichigo's cuteness and Suiseiseki's insanity. It's interesting that, even though she was inevitably going to fail (with humourous results) that she was planning on trying to win the Alice game in one foul swoop in her invasion. I'm not sure exactly what the ramifications are, but it is a bit weird, considering it seems like the other 4 dolls have pretty much given up on the Alice game, and are happy in their own alliance. It's as if they think the prize at the end of the Alice game isn't worth giving up the happy equilibrium they've formed at the moment. It'll be interesting to see if Barasuisho's presence will upset this happy equilibrium, and by how much.

I can't say I think Kanaria's going to play much of a role in the Alice game though... I think she's realized trying to take down four dolls is a bit too much for her.

Sorrow-kun

11-22-2005, 08:30 AM

ED single out. It's made of serious win and gold. For starters, there's seven songs on it, as opposed to the two songs and two karaoke versions we usually get served from OP/ED singles. And, (for the most part) the songs are seriously awesome as well. There's a real "RahXephon" feel about them. Good stuff, considering the music was about the only good thing about RahXephon.

It's funny. As awesome as this ED single is (and as the ED song itself is), I have been really unhappy with Traumend recycling the songs from the first series. They're not bad songs... they're just... well... stale now.

soundchazer

11-22-2005, 08:37 AM

Episode 3:

*yawn*
I think the Kanaria character was not needed. It added nothing new in terms of personality, and is rather disagreeable. Even from the character design standpoint is dull.

ShinoMatrix

11-22-2005, 04:51 PM

I agree with the character design of Kanaria being a bit "meh" but I'm not sure it didn't do too much to the series as a whole... after all, now it's complete (but of course we wouldn't have known that unless it was told to us).

I did see this episode as a try to do the same Kun-kun episode as Sorrow-kun said, and it fell at roughly the same section too :p

Maybe it's just me waking up and still not thinking clearly, but at this point in time, I can't seem to make a prediction on where this series is going to head. Nonetheless, it's still something I definitely like.

Sorrow-kun

11-22-2005, 06:56 PM

Well, considering thatGin-sama is revived in episode 6my prediction is that we could be seeing a unholy alliance of sorts forming between her and Barasuisho, and the Alice game is going into full swing. I'm interested in seeing just how powerful Barasuisho is, and whether or not she has a medium, (since it was the medium that was the difference between Gin-sama and Shinku in the first series). Gin-sama did have a given amount of success by employing a divide and conquer tactic to get the Sekis' Rosa Mysticae, and, if it weren't for Jun, I think she would have easily done away with Shinku. I'm not sure if it'll work this time around though... I think the dolls are far more prepared for something like that. I can't really see Barasuisho having the manipulative powers necessary to spark any thing between the sisters, let alone turn them against each other (since, after all, they're all sisters, though we may sometimes forget) ala Mai-HiME style. But, I think, considering the spoiler, things could be interesting in latter episodes.

Alternatively, they may give up on the Alice game, and the whole series could be a concentration on the characters.

Linuts

11-22-2005, 08:27 PM

Well...Ep 3 could've been better. Kanaria didn't exactly have the best intro ep, and I do agree that her overall design is "meh" compared to the other RMs. I'll give her another chance though. The highlight of this ep is probably Shinku's Kun Kun outfit! I love it when she does that "I want to bear your child" expression when it comes to her Kun Kun obssession :D.

I kinda like Sorrow-kun's little plot idea. That would make things pretty interesting for the Alice game.

Shadowmage

11-22-2005, 08:41 PM

I kinda like Sorrow-kun's little plot idea. That would make things pretty interesting for the Alice game.
Great idea!

We could kill off our loveable characters then revive them all in a melodramatic fashion! (Complete with jokes an the Power Rangers reference!)

/sarcasm

I really think that this would work, but after watching the Gundam franchise from alpha as well as Twelve Kingdoms, I don't care much about characters dying anymore.

Linuts

11-22-2005, 08:44 PM

Great idea!

We could kill off our loveable characters then revive them all in a melodramatic fashion! (Complete with jokes an the Power Rangers reference!)

/sarcasm

I really think that this would work, but after watching the Gundam franchise from alpha as well as Twelve Kingdoms, I don't care much about characters dying anymore.

Aaaah shaddap!

* Linuts hugs Gin-sama

Shadowmage

11-22-2005, 08:47 PM

* Linuts hugs Gin-sama
Go doll necrophilia!

...

*Must sleep

Sorrow-kun

11-22-2005, 09:59 PM

Nah, I don't think it'll work like that. There's no Balkans like there was in Mai-HiME. The bond between the characters is just too tight, and I think they're happy to live in the equilibrium they currently have, than to ruthlessly pursue Alice the way Gin-sama did.

* Sorrow-kun is currently acquiring episode 4

This could take a few hours though... my internet connection is being particularly stupid today.

loner

11-23-2005, 01:22 AM

Ep. 4

One of the best episode of the season. It truly showed how Jun had developed from the uncaring, selfish slob to a caring person. He actually reached out to Suiseiseki and asked to be her slave. This is a turnaround from the first season: the dolls helped Jun with his problem back then, now Jun is helping the dolls with their problems.

A really cute episode for Suiseiseki, which showed that for all her devious tricks on Hinaichigo, she's the one who most want her sisters to stick together. Souseiseki's words towards Shinku may make Sorrow think a bit about the sisters being completely united. I doubt Sousei will do anything that's against the wishes of Suisei, but well...We'll see.

Ep. 5 was the humor episode, like ep. 5 in the first season. I didn't laugh as much as I did at Stairs however. That episode had endless parade insanity and mayhem, and while there were moments that made me laugh, they were much more sporadic. And that's maybe because I didn't care much about Hinaichigo. Shinku's deepest fear however was hilarious.

[spoiler] I'm not sure about Suigintou's return. They better make it believable. Of course, it's much easier to bring back a doll to 'life'. Still, her return needs to serve a purpose, other than serving the masses of fanboys.

Sorrow-kun

11-23-2005, 03:37 AM

Episode 4 is weird, because it both partly confirms and dispels what I've been saying in the last few posts I've made in this thread. Suiseiseki's comments at the beginning of the episode were almost exactly inline with my reasoning on why the dolls won't pursue Alice. But it's interesting that her motivation for looking for a medium was to protect the equilibrium. It might have worked well for her in this episode, but the relevant questions now are, will it work out that way in the future? After all, it was Jun, not Suiseiseki, who initiated the retreat. If Jun hadn't done so, would Suiseiseki have finished Barasuisho off? Is she capable of doing such a thing? And why did Jun initiate the retreat? Was it out of concern for Shinku (which was what I originally thought), out of concern for Suiseiseki (because he didn't want her to go through what Shinku is going through at the moment because of Gin-sama), or because he'd drained too much power? Or maybe just a convenient plot device to keep Barasuisho alive for the next 8 episodes?

But, the most interesting thing from this episode was the puppet-show. A lot of questions came out of this. Although it's fairly clear that it was orchestrated by Barasuisho, it'll be interesting to see whether or not this acts as a premonition of sorts for how the Alice Game will fold out. I mean, it's clear that Shinku is capable of that sort of demonstration of power... she did so to defeat Gin-sama. And the very first part of the puppet-show has already come to pass. Although this episode has shown that the trauma of her interaction with Gin-sama is still keeping Shinku from fighting (despite her motif in the first series that "to live is to fight".) Who knows how exactly this could effect her in later episodes? To think about it, it isn't a long putt to postulate that this very trauma could lead her to eventually do things we saw in the puppet show.

I think, perhaps, the cracks in the sisterly alliance are there to exploit for someone like Barasuisho to turn the dolls against each other (or Shinku against everyone, which is what the puppet show appears to be suggesting), though they're slightly different this time than they were last time. It'll be very interesting to see how things will turn out.

I'm not sure about Suigintou's return. They better make it believable. Of course, it's much easier to bring back a doll to 'life'. Still, her return needs to serve a purpose, other than serving the masses of fanboys.This is where I disagree with you.I think, if anything, throwing Gin-sama into the mix will make things way more interesting. Like I've been saying, I don't think Barasuisho has the capacity to take on all five of the other dolls. Especially considering how she could have easily fallen in this episode. However, Gin-sama on the other could. And she got extremely close to, even without the aid of a medium in the first series. Now consider what would happen if the two of them formed an unholy alliance. Even if they didn't team up (since, when you think about it, this goes against everything Gin-sama wanted to do, since she was ruthless in her ambition to attain Alice), having her in the mix seriously makes things interesting.

loner

11-23-2005, 12:01 PM

I think Jun told them to retreat because he knows Suiseiseki is still not up to par with Barashuishou. Suiseiseki got a 'power up' and surprised Barashuishou a bit and caught her off guard, but ultimately she's still not going to beat that freak. So Jun retreated while they still can, since Shinku is just leeching his power without doing anything.

Oh, but will Suigintou go to Barashuishou? She doesn't look nearly as determined and evil in the preview as she did last season. In fact, she looked lost and weak. And personally, Barashuishou still reminds me more of a psycho killer rather than a cunning strategist like Suigintou. I don't see her teaming up with any doll, since she's even rather annoyed by that rabbit.

Anyways, we shall see. From what I can see from the preview, Suigintou rather reminds me of Shinku now: lost her will to fight.

Shadowmage

11-23-2005, 12:35 PM

Episode 4

Kanaria is indeed worthless. She is used as wallflower and for unfunny comedic moments. Theoretically, she is supposed to become friends with Hina Ichigo, but I bet the relationship will be forced. Anyways, this was a great episode overall. Like everyone said, Jun is nowhere near as egocentric as last season. With Gin-Sama making a return, with should be interesting...

ShinoMatrix

11-24-2005, 04:39 AM

I'm assuming people are actually predicting this return based on something you've seen on the preview? (which I hardly ever watch since I like surprises).

Anyway, episode 4 is very much a very entertaining episode. Kanaria is still worthless, she even seems to describe herself that way at the very end when she's forgotten and stuck half way down a puddle, which incidentally sent me cracking up laughing

There's really a lot in this season that was something that migrated from the first season, and generally all of them were good, and at the same time the new angles they're playing in are very much interesting too (damn it, I need to find a different word to "interesting"). Episode 4 is probably really the beginning of it all as they keep saying and sort of see Shinku being significantly weakened at this point in time. I predict some sort of come back power up sort of direction for her sometime in the future, and though it'll be predictable, I'd hope at least that it'll kick arse.

From the start, I sort of didn't like Suiseiseki, but hell, this time around, she was just adorable, particularly when she was strangling Kanaria

Sorrow-kun

11-24-2005, 05:07 AM

From the start, I sort of didn't like SuiseisekiYou die now.

ShinoMatrix

11-24-2005, 05:11 AM

Dude... she annoyed me to no end and her annoying attributes didn't seem to serve a purpose... that's the argument I'm standing by...

Plus the eye thing... too mismatched colours, and only now am I getting used to them. It reminded me of that fat lazy cat that my cousin had with the different eye colours.

soundchazer

11-24-2005, 05:14 AM

Linuts

11-25-2005, 09:16 AM

to be quite honest, I thought Suiseiseki was a completely worthless character in the first series, used more as a plot device in the latter episodes than a true character. I´m liking her better being a bit shy and a whole lot more "true to her feelings" in this second series (plus she has a more prominent role).

If I remember correctly, she started out shy in the first season as well. But when she got used to things and started picking on Hina Ichigo, I found the show that much more enjoyable. Since she is one of my favorites for the show, I really like this ep ^^.

Oh, and nothing wrong with different colored eyes. I've seen some real people with that trait and it's kinda cool ^^.

ShinoMatrix

11-25-2005, 08:39 PM

On any other day, I'd most likely agree with you, but for her case, the colours just don't match... they contrast each other too much, sort of makes her look cross-eyed, in my opinion.

I guess if I were to pick a favourite, it would be Shinku, but I did like Suiginto before too.

loner

11-25-2005, 11:23 PM

Uh, ignore this post until you actually watch ep. 6. I'm gonna cover all of it with spoiler tag, but just in case you get the urge to see it anyways, remember that you're spoiling yourself possibly the best episode of the series.

Gin-sama is back. And it was done much, much better than I could imagine. It's done beautifully, and even made sense, though a bit more explanation should be given on who exactly is Rozen. Although seeing the development so far, that explanation is coming too, and I have full faith that the producers will do a good job on that too.

Suigintou found herself the perfect mistress. Megu IMO is a lot similar to what Suigintou think of herself deep inside. At the end of last season, we get the reason why Suigintou wanted to win at Alice Game so bad. I pitied her, but it wasn't enough to make any great impact. This made impact. Well done.

And I'll give Sorrow props. It seems like Barashuishou is thinking along your lines. However, that plan doesn't appear to be working, since Gin-sama isn't so kill-happy now. She was absolutely adorable towards the end. And Barashuishou do have a plan, it seems. Hmm..

Seems like Kanaria development next episode. Much needed, this. She's a joke so far, and not so funny one at that.

Sorrow-kun

11-26-2005, 09:39 AM

Too much Suiseiseki bashing in this thread. :(

I think they should have renamed episode 5 Hina Ichigo's Cute Cute Adventure. Humourous episode that focused on Hina Ichigo (nano~), but I'm still not exactly sure what we're supposed to take out of it, regarding her. I suppose it highlights how she's changed since her days with Tomoe, but I saw the ending with her letter as more a cop out than a funny joke. This is good though:

http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/8755/11328060195215jj.th.jpg (http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/8755/11328060195215jj.jpg)

Two interesting things from this episode: First, Kanaria's medium. Looks like she's the standard doll collector type. Interesting to see if throwing another human into the mix will have any bearing on the Alice Game, since she doesn't look like the sort of person who could handle something like that.

But, the more interesting thing came in the next episode preview: Suigintou is back. Wow. I know it's already aired, but this coming episode cannot be fansubbed fast enough, as far as I'm concerned.

Sorrow-kun

11-27-2005, 07:30 AM

Episode 6 feels a lot like a Rennaissance of sorts. It feels like the series is now only just awakening.

What really surprised me about Gin-sama's revival is Megu's presence. Like Loner said, Megu is very much like Gin-sama. I also think, in a way her situation also somewhat resembles Jun's at the beginning of the first series: existing in that pitiful equilibrium. Although whether there's the inevitable light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel resolution-through-character-development awaiting Megu that was there Jun, we certainly can't say at this stage, since we've been told she has a terminal illness.

Shinku was happy at Gin-sama's revival, but we still don't know for certain if she's reclaimed her will to fight. I have my doubts, since she seemed extremely relieved that her sister was back. Another surprise was that Suigintou had forgotten about her fight with Shinku.

The Barasuisho-Gin-sama unholy alliance isn't going to happen. I can see that now. I think, if anything, throwing Gin-sama into the mix is going to backfire on Barasuisho, if her ambitions are to win the Alice Game, since she's just created another opponent for herself.... but, then again, we can't be 100% sure those are her ambitions at this stage. For all we know, her ambitions could simply be to start the Alice Game. Her relationship with the doll shop owner poses an interesting question, as does his relationship with Rozen.

Last comment is one about Suigintou and Megu. I think it's inevitable that, by series' end, one will save the other (I'm talking in a metaphorical sense here, similar to how Shinku saved Jun in the first series... and also how Jun saved Shinku.) However, whether its Suigintou that saves Megu or Megu that saves Suigintou, we'll have to wait and see. But, I think the more interesting question is, will both of them be able to save each other?
Edit: Next episode looks like it wants to dive back into the traditional RM-comedy style. Personally, I think the time for that has been and gone. Unless they can turn Kanaria into Mother Theresa in this episode, than it's probably time better spent on a more important character (Barasuisho, Shinku or another episode on Gin-sama) or on starting the Alice game (after all, there are only 6 episodes left).

Shadowmage

12-03-2005, 01:21 PM

Episode 5

I love crows... That being said, I think that this was a funny but ulitmately worthless episode. Yes, there were some cute moments, but the entire episode felt forced. I can't imagine Suiseiseki sucking up to Jun. Well, a humorous scene before a serious event is common in literature...

*Shadowmages goes and watches episode 6

Shadowmage

12-03-2005, 02:24 PM

Episode 6

It seems that the plot thickens. Like everyone said, this was beautifully orchestreated episode. Suigintou is a loveable character simply because of her masked vulnerabilities. (In that sense, she reminds me of Nao from Mai Hime.) I really hope the producers know what they are doing. With only six episodes left, they barely have enough time to wrap up the Alice Game.

loner

12-04-2005, 02:33 AM

Episode 7

Oh the producer certainly know what they are doing. This episode is definitely not a comedic filler. Kanaria is fleshed out to be more than just comedic relief, as her motive for fighting the others in the Alice Game is revealed.

Her motive is to preserve her equilibrium, so that she can continue to be with her mistress. It's pre-emptive strike for self defence. This could also be the reason why Suigintou will fight, as she is also developing a relationship with Megu, and maybe even Suiseiseki. However, it appears Souseiseki has a different motive, that she still have lingering ambitions to become Alice and be with Father. This actually makes her the most dangerous doll besides Barashuishou. We'll see more of her episode.

Overall, Traumend is doing everything I asked it to do very well. It provides much more development for all of the dolls, especially Souseiseki, who needs it the most. Only Hinaichigo's development I felt was forced. The pacing is going fine, as things will get serious next episode.

Finally, Shinku is absolutely adorable in this episode.

Sorrow-kun

12-04-2005, 08:46 AM

However, it appears Souseiseki has a different motive, that she still have lingering ambitions to become Alice and be with Father. This actually makes her the most dangerous doll besides Barashuishou.I does, doesn't it. This episode partly highlights the big difference between Shinku and Souseiseki which I think is going to be really explored in the coming episodes. Though both experienced respective traumatic events in the first series, Souseiseki didn't change from hers, though Shinku experienced quite dramatic changes, as can be seen from her (still) non-existant desire to fight. (It appears that Gin-sama's revival has turned "inability" to "non-existant desire"... not something I was totally expecting tbh, but well within the bounds of Shinku's character, who took up arms in the episode only to defend, and not to attack, and certainly not to attack to finish. But it still shows that the incident with Gin-sama has induced an irreversible change in Shinku's character, and that the ambition to be Alice is pretty much completely gone in her.) Souseiseki, on the other hand, still appears to have that immovable loyalty to concepts (such as "master" and "Father" and "Alice") as opposed to people (Suiseiseki, Shinku, etc) that defined her in the first series (but got her into a lot of trouble)... which is not surprising, since her particular traumatic experience never required of her the need to change. It was her master who changed in the first series... not her. So, Souseiseki still has this fatal flaw, there to be exploited, just as it was last time.

Kanaria is significantly stronger than I'd have predicted. But, then again, this is the first time we've seen her in full flight (...or have we?). The fight showed a few things. Obviously Shinku is still by far the most powerful of the non-Barasuisho dolls (I'd be tempted to go as far as to say that, when in the mood to fight, Shinku would easily defeat Barasuisho in a 1v1... but obviously I can't say for certain, since we haven't seen this happen yet). And that Kanaria is stronger than Hina Ichigo, Suiseiseki (minus her medium) and Souseiseki (minus her intent to kill) put together. Kanaria's motivation for fighting is an interesting one: one that highlights Kanaria's love for her master (I chose that word very carefully, purposely not saying "loyalty" so I could highlight a difference between Kanaria and Souseiseki's attitudes to their respective masters). Shinku's appeasement tactic was definitely the best way to go about it from her perspective. But it's still unknown whether it's put out Kanaria's will to fight, considering, in her eyes, there are unnaccounted dolls who could still pose a threat to her master.

The dress-up doll scene was OMG SO MOE!!!! I find it interesting that Kanaria's master appears to be a go-go career woman, but still has a mad interest in dolls. Not totally unusual, I realize, and a perfect fit for Kanaria. I just wasn't expecting it.

I think Gin-sama's return is really setting her up to turn out to be a hero, rather than a villian. My prediction is that she's not going to be able to save Megu, but she will save Shinku. Reasons still stem back to me suspecting that only one of them will be saved, and the more I think about it, the more I think it won't be Megu. And she seems to be missing that ruthless desire to attain Alice. The changes in her character are almost as profound as the changes in Shinku's... which I suppose is expected, since they did experience opposite sides of the same conflict. This is why I think there's a chance Gin-sama may evolve sympathy for Shinku's cause.

There are 4 main unknown elements I can see in this: Obviously, Souseiseki and Gin-sama. The other two are Barasuisho and the doll maker. What we don't know about Barasuisho is whether or not her motivation really is to win the Alice game, or whether its just to do the doll maker's bidding... whatever that may be. And obviously the doll maker is an unknown element because we literally know nothing about him. Which is why I'm highly anticipating the next episode, which looks like it's going to deal with this very issue.

Enough speculation, time for judgement. Things are developing with numerous interesting questions about where this story is going to go. Rozen Maiden's strength, though, in my opinion, has always been its characters. Never mind the stunning character design, that's something no one has argued against since the first episode of the first series. But RM also has stunning characters, all consisting of their own unique contradictions. In the first series, we were presented with a set of very strong personalities. Now we're seeing these personalities evolve. As good as this is, my biggest concern is still time. There's now only 5 episodes left, with still a lot to get through. My biggest fear is that RM~T~ is going to be an incomplete series.

Linuts

12-05-2005, 08:58 PM

Sorrow-kun is trying to write out the entire RM series. I need to stop reading his posts :p.

But the way Souseiseki developed in this ep is quite surprising. What is her real motivation in the Alice Game? Why is she so eager to let it begin?

And, as previously stated, Kanaria is pretty strong o_O. Despite that, she is still a bit annoying to me... Along with his crazed owner (but that's understandable ^^).

Sorrow-kun

12-05-2005, 10:17 PM

But the way Souseiseki developed in this ep is quite surprising. What is her real motivation in the Alice Game? Why is she so eager to let it begin?I still argue that the reason is nothing more than a consequence of the biggest flaw in her character: her unrelenting loyalty to concepts. She was told that one day she'll have to fight her sisters in order to become Alice. And no amount of reasoning from her sisters will stop her, if it means compromising her loyalty to Father's wish. Why? Because that's just the type of person she is.

It's exactly the same as it was in the first season where she refused to listen to her closest sister's pleas to leave her master. And it created a weakness for Gin-sama to exploit, costing her her Rosa Mystica, and the Rosa Mystica of her closest sister as well. Yet, despite this, she still hasn't learnt, and it appears as if she's doomed to make the same mistakes she made last time... refusing to listen to reason if it means questioning her loyalty. I think, she realizes she doesn't have a big chance of becoming Alice... personally, I wouldn't give her a chance against the likes of Shinku or Gin-sama. But, if Father says to her "start the Alice game", then I'd be very surprised if "start the Alice game" she didn't.

Shadowmage

12-10-2005, 09:36 AM

Episode 7

Sheesh, I'm behind everyone. Anyways, this was another nice addition. With a dash of comedy and a good amount of character development, this series far outstrips its predecessor. While Kanaria is not quite Mother Teressa, she is a lot deeper than originally anticipated. Once again, 2005 has been a bountiful year.

Out of curiosity, care to guess what Alice's Game really is about? I wonder if it is something like Pinocchio where the winner becomes human... I just hope that 5 episodes is enough to wrap things up. (Although another sequel would be nice.)

Sorrow-kun

12-10-2005, 10:47 AM

While Kanaria is not quite Mother Teressa, she is a lot deeper than originally anticipated.I see what you did there.

Well, the first season hinted that Alice becomes the perfect doll, which pretty much discounts the possibility of becoming human. I actually see it more as a Wizard of Oz like-thing... Suiseiseki would get courage, Barasuisho would get a heart, Kanaria would get a brain, and Jun would get to go back to Kansas...

Personally I don't think it's something even the manga-ka himself has speculated... I just can't see the Alice game going all the way through without something interrupted it.

Sorrow-kun

12-11-2005, 07:51 AM

I have seriously underestimated Barasuisho.

The fact that she played Souseiseki like a violin isn't overly surprising. I didn't think she could do it earlier in the series, but I see now that she's a lot more clever and manipulative than I originally gave her credit for. And Souseiseki isn't exactly a hard doll to turn... all she needed was a vision of Father dangled in front of her, and she was gone. But, what surprised me is that she has made a move to manipulate the invincible, unflappable Suigintou of the first series into giving up her Rosa Mystica.... without a fight. And our lovely Gin-sama is clearly contemplating the possibility. This I never would have forseen... not in a million years.

I honestly thought bringing Gin-sama back into the equation wasn't going to be anything other than bad news for Barasuisho. Yet, it's quite the contrary. I suppose it highlights how drastically Gin-sama has changed since the first series, but the concept of her laying down her Rosa Mystica without a fight in the first series would have been so unheard of that... well... we've all seen Gin-sama from the first series.

Souseiseki clearly has no idea what she's doing. The fact that she loudly announced her intentions to four of the dolls, which are in a reasonably tight alliance of the "unwilling-to-wage-the-Alice-game"... one of which is the big favourite to win, and another of which beat her very recently in a semi-serious fight, was just stupid on her part. She lacks that killer instinct or manipulative edge to be a force in the Alice game, let alone an explosive power. Additionally, her medium is an old man from whom we've yet to see her draw power. I don't think she has a chance. Personally I think she realizes this, and that her intention isn't "to win" but "to start". She's seen "Father" (or a vision of him anyway... one likely created by Barasuisho), she knows that he wants Alice and, goddamnit, Alice he'll get.

Next episode appears to set up a battle between Souseiseki and Gin-sama, which is very enticing. However, I don't give Souseiseki much of a chance. But I'm very interesting in seeing just how much insanity this has created, and how much this has upset the alliance.

Animation in this episode seemed off at times.

Special interest: For those that don't know, from front to back, this is the order that the Rozen Maiden were made in.
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/5715/capturecopy1bt.th.jpg (http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/5715/capturecopy1bt.jpg)
(I had to glue this together from 3 screenshots, so you'll probably notice some faint lines). Before I knew the real order, I actually thought that Hina Ichigo and Kanaria were swapped.

soundchazer

12-11-2005, 07:54 AM

That would make an awesome sig, just adding the legend "ready to kick your ass" at the end.

loner

12-12-2005, 07:32 AM

Ep. 8

Didn't realize the animation problems really. The developments in the story took my attention.

Souseiseki has a blind loyalty to those that she is attached to. We saw that in the first season, where she ignores the advice of Suiseiseki and continues "help" her elderly masters, which nearly results in disaster as both her and her sister's spirits were taken by Suigintou. Still, in a way she should be commended or at least sympathized for her loyalty to the old man. Here however, it shows that she has a greater loyalty attached to Rozen, and I believe this will go very awry for her. Assuming that she doesn't fall already to Suigintou next episode, it would be most intriguing if she has to go up against Suiseiseki. This will be a true conflict of loyalty for her.

Sorrow, I think you've mistaken what Barashuishou means. She does not mean that Megu will be cured if Suigintou gives up her Rosa Mystica, but that she will be cured if she OBTAINS a Rosa Mystica. This means that Suigintou will go full out against Souseiseki next episode as well. Still, this is a huge change in Suigintou's character, not just that she's not fighting for a selfish reason but for someone else, but also because she is very conflicted about doing so.

I'm still wondering about Enju/Rozen. It's obvious that they're related, but where do they come into in this equation? Shirosaki and Barasuishou are apparently hiding their manipulations and devious plans behind his back, so is all this what he wanted?

...God I hate having to postpone watching the next 3 episodes...

Sorrow-kun

12-12-2005, 07:38 AM

Sorrow, I think you've mistaken what Barashuishou means. She does not mean that Megu will be cured if Suigintou gives up her Rosa Mystica, but that she will be cured if she OBTAINS a Rosa Mystica. This means that Suigintou will go full out against Souseiseki next episode as well. Still, this is a huge change in Suigintou's character, not just that she's not fighting for a selfish reason but for someone else, but also because she is very conflicted about doing so.Ah, I see. Didn't think of it that way. Although, that confuses me as to why she should be so conflicted about it.If she eventually won the Alice game, it wouldn't be as if she'd have a shortage of Rosa Mysticae... unless she needs to collect and keep all of them, as opposed to just stripping them from the other dolls.

loner

12-12-2005, 08:19 AM

I think with her flashback to Shinku, Suigintou is not as determined to fight her sisters any more. She's, dare we say it, feeling attached to her sister. The enmity that was there is no longer there, and well, after "junked" once and seeing how much Shinku regrets doing that, she doesn't want to see herself, or any of her sisters, suffer that fate again. At least, that's what I think.

She's not just got a tummy now. She's got a heart.

I must say this too: Shinku's love for Kun-Kun has been increasing to disturbing and obsessive levels in this season. I wonder why Barashuishou haven't thought of this: just put a knife on a Kun-Kun doll and threaten Shinku that she'll kill it if she doesn't give up her Rosa Mystica. It worked very well last season.

ShinoMatrix

12-12-2005, 08:33 AM

I'm going to have to rewatch this one, preferably in some other way *looks suspiciously*

The Kun-kun obsession is getting a bit over the top, I think. I found it to be funnier/cuter on Shinku when it was almost a secret thing about her. It's to open right now.

I think I missed too much to comment just yet... although that picture of all the Rozen Maidens is very nifty indeed and worthy of being turned into a sig :D

I might do it too :XD:

Sorrow-kun

12-12-2005, 08:49 AM

The Kun-kun obsession is getting a bit over the top, I think. I found it to be funnier/cuter on Shinku when it was almost a secret thing about her. It's to open right now.
Bah, sif! I think it works as a perfect balance to her otherwise mature and proper nature. It's good to know she can sometimes allow herself to be a child and forget herself sometimes.

Linuts

12-12-2005, 06:55 PM

Barashuisou seems to be making a better antagonist than Gin-sama. You still gotta wonder what her motivation is behind starting the Alice Game. Are her intentions evil? Or something else?

* Linuts looks at Sorrow-kun

Well?

:D

Sorrow-kun

12-12-2005, 07:48 PM

Barashuisou seems to be making a better antagonist than Gin-sama.Yes You still gotta wonder what her motivation is behind starting the Alice Game. Are her intentions evil? Or something else?

* Linuts looks at Sorrow-kun

Well?

:DNo.

Shadowmage

12-15-2005, 02:45 PM

Episode 8

It seems that the fireworks are about to begin. I doubt four episodes will be enough time to settle everything, but then again, the writers have been doing a great job so far. Souseiseki should make an interesting "villain" considering that we have cared for her for so long. Like last season, she is susceptible to her emotions, and is going the way of destructions. Considering that Suiseikseki is pretty much her twin, I wonder how everything is going to play out.

loner

12-15-2005, 09:56 PM

Tsk Tsk Tsk. I'm such a sadistic bastard.

WTF ARE YOU DOING READING THIS!!! NO YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ THIS!!!!

SPOILER DAMN IT!!!!!

Ok, Gin-sama pwns Souseiseki.

Souseiseki is "junkified".

The game is on. It's Dollander time.

Sorrow-kun

12-16-2005, 09:47 AM

Bad news: Rozen Maiden episode 10 won't be airing until January 12th.

ShinoMatrix

12-16-2005, 07:19 PM

You're kidding me @_@

Ack... way to kill the Christmas cheer :XD:

And loner... man, you know, if you really were sorry to have posted such a spoiler, you wouldn't have posted it all... now I need to go all emo because there's no more surprises in life and the sun won't shine no more...

* ShinoMatrix listens to Linkin Park :p

loner

12-16-2005, 08:13 PM

Lol did I say I was sorry? :XD: I just admitted I'm a sadistical bastard, and I'm proud of it!

* loner cackles evilly as another victim fall to his evil schemes

And don't say I didn't warn you XD

ShinoMatrix

12-16-2005, 10:15 PM

I read up to the first line of the actual bit of the spoiler, past all the warnings...

And the moment I read it, I was like, "NOOOOOO!" Darth Vader style...

If you're sadistic, I guess I'm masochistic... *sigh*

To end the note on Rozen Maiden (so as to keep on topic :p), I just found myself liking Suiseiseki a bit more now... The way she was pleading in the end, I guess touch a chord with me, particularly with the reference to the elder the twins.

Sorrow-kun

12-18-2005, 07:48 AM

Oh wow. What a horribly disappointing episode. The story certainly moved in this episode, but it was executed so horrendously, it pretty much ruined the whole thing.

First, the plot. So, Souseiseki bites the dust. Not a huge surprise, her downfall was inevitable. And I did know this was going to happen from hearsay. The unholy alliance did happen, but the reasoning behind it wasn't satisfactory, in my opinion. Suigintou needs a convenient ally to bring down the others... she didn't last time, why the hell does she need to this time? The fact that she's reverted back to her old self (minus the fact that she worked alone last time) was a big disappointment, considering how much character development she had gone through and how profound her changes were compared to last season. And now that's all been reversed. Biggest kick in the teeth, IMO... makes the events of episode 6 seem pointless now.

Suiseiseki's attempt to stop her sister were pretty poor, which suggest she's hardly going to be a force in the Alice game. So it seems there are pretty much just three players in this tournament, although Kanaria could probably be given a wildcard. Considering Shinku's continuing disdain for fighting, and the fact that she was easily overpowered by Barasuisho, she really needs her medium to have any chance at all against either of the unholy alliance... let alone both of them.

Now for criticism: The animation was a step down from the last episode, which had me slightly disappointed, and a tier down from the excellent animation of the first series. This certainly did no favours in setting up the atmosphere required to make the dramatic events in the plot have impact. But, poor animation I could have forgiven. The poor writing, I can't. In situations like these, the motivations behind each characters actions need to come across crystal clear, but also in a believable fashion. This is something Mai-HiME executed superbly, which allowed the more profound events in the story to be properly dramatic. But, not here. Barasuisho's motivations are still completely clouded in mystery, despite the fact that it's the fourth last episode. Suigintou's motivations were quickly passed over... almost tiptoed around, without the proper dramatic build up that should have happened, considering the Megu relationship that's been established so far. Ditto that with Souseiseki. Ditto that with Shinku. Only Suiseiseki's motivations came across crystal clear with the proper amount of time paid to it... but even this didn't feel right. Her constant pleading for Souseiseki to display some sanity, and then the "if you don't stop, you'll have to go through me" ultimatum seemed to lack something... which left the scene far less memorable than it potentially could have been. Whether this something was "atmosphere" or better dialogue or something like that, I'm not sure. But the whole thing seemed like a fizzle rather than the bang it should have been.

The fights in this episode were several tiers below what I tend to expect from RM... it almost resembled something from Kannaduki no Miko, but with dolls instead of mecha.

I'm so thoroughly disappointed with this episode. Considering there are only three episodes left, I seriously hope the last three are better than this one. The build up in the last few episodes has been so good, first with the return of Gin-sama, the slow decline of Souseiseki, the Barasuisho-conspiracy (even though we've yet to reach any stage past "it exists" in regard to revealing what's happening here). Next episode preview makes me suspect that Hina Ichigo is next to bite the dust. Let's hope it is somewhat more dramatic and better executed than this was.

Shadowmage

12-20-2005, 07:32 PM

Episode 9

I agree with Sorrow-kun in that the presentation could have been better. While the animation wasn't that bad (I saw the high quality raw first), the overall episode was forced. Everything could have played out more elegantly, but the time limitation is forcing the creators to show their hands prematurely. Everyone is a big question mark at this point. I am wondering whether Suigintou actually cares about her master or not. I know she does, but her sadistic behavior is putting that in doubt. Shinku's insistence of not fighting is getting irksome as well. She is giving me odd deja-vous of Kenshin except she doesn't have a supermove to save all her friends like the aforementioned character. Suiseiseki is a melodramatic mess right now. While her insecurity is justified, her lack of resolve is not. She just sits there whinning... like Kaoru. Probably the only high point of the episode is Souseiseki. Despite her misguided ideologies, I can always sympathize with her due to her adament stance about what she believes in. Overall, I hope the last three episodes get better.

Note: What's the bettings that she is coming back?

Anyways, who here thought that Souseiseki was a boy in the first Rozen Maiden anime? Her keen devotion to please her elders gave me a strong impression that she is a male. However, the sequel is constantly proving otherwise. (Although, she will always be a boy in my subconscious mind.)

Sorrow-kun

12-20-2005, 08:23 PM

Admittedly, I still sometimes get gender confused about Souseiseki. But she is supposed to look like a boy, after all.

Sorrow-kun

12-22-2005, 09:41 PM

Rozen Maiden doll sim game in the works

http://www.dengekionline.com/data/news/2005/12/22/b37b49335dc5deee3690ac297c5b213f.html

Don't know the details because... well... I don't understand the language. Characters from the second series appear to be missing.

Ninja Realist

01-01-2006, 04:57 PM

So I know this is an old thread but, I just got caught up, and all I really have to say is:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, why did it have to be Souseiseki. She was my favorite character. But I am, admittedly, glad to see that some people are FINALLY DYING, I was afraid it would just go on peacefully like that forever. But all in all, like Sorrow said, Rozen Maiden has turned into a mediocre Mai-Hime knock of, with better humour and better character designs.

loner

01-06-2006, 01:40 AM

Yeah I'm very late >_>

Hmm...sooooo....

I don't complete agree with Sorrow. At least not about Suigintou. This is her personality. When she's determined to do something, she is this vicious and sadistic. That's just how she is. The difference between her of last season and the her now is that she is doing this for someone else rather than herself. She is no longer selfish, but is starting to care for others. She doesn't want Megu to become a junk because she can relate to her situation. She has become compassionate, and that is a major change for her from last season, where she just drown in her self-pity and inflict pain on others. She doesn't want Megu to follow her example, so she searches for any way possible to save her. When she learns the only way possible, she has to become determined to fight again. The Gin-sama of ep. 6 is a lost and uncertain Gin-sama; the Gin-sama of this episode is one that knows what her short term goal is at least and is determined to get it. Her personality is still the same yes, but her motivation and her, shall we say, modes of thinking is different. IMO, if her personality changed from sadistic and twisted to angelic and holy, THAT would leave a bad taste in my mouth. Here, I believe they are doing a decent job with Suigintou at least. I believe that there's not essentially a growth or changes in her character in Traumend, but more of a fleshing out. We are just shown facets of her character that was not shown last season, and perhaps facets that she does not want anybody to see.

As for the "unholy alliance" between Barashuishou and Suigintou, well, I don't really see any alliance. Barashuishou told Suigintou the way to save Megu, and so they used each other to achieve their aims. Barashuishou did facilitate the fight, but there was no plan beforehand between the two on how best to get a Rosa Mystica. In fact, Suigintou never asked for Barashuishou for help, Barashuishou did it voluntarily, and Gin-sama ain't going to go stop her, ne? Suigintou never really paid attention on what Barashuishou is doing, and just focused on attacking Souseiseki. She didn't ask for an ally, Barashuishou just went and help her (for her own goal, which yes unfortunately we are not clear about yet).

You also have to remember that Souseiseki basically offered her Rosa Mystica to be taken. Suigintou didn't go and aggressively attack the dolls (though she might be willing to do that too for Megu if not for Souseiseki). This was a formal Alice Game fight.

I agree on some other points though, namely the execution of part of the fight. The fact that the fight itself wasn't spectacular did not strike me odd, and I find that to be more of a problem of the fighter involved, namely Souseiseki, rather than the whole series taking a step down. Souseiseki does not have any fancy attacks like Shinku's sakura petals, so compared with the beautiful fights between Shinku and Gin-sama last season, this well not compare favorably. Souseiseki can just swing his big scissors around, which is rather one-dimensional (but it proves that she was never meant to be a great challenger in the first place, and that she herself should know this was doomed from the start). The other stuff you mentioned, including Suiseiseki's resistance, I do find rather rushed. I believe that's what brought it down a bit: the rushed feel in this major confrontation. That was indeed a bit disappointing. As for the motivation of the characters being crystal clear, however, I don't think this is THE major confrontation of this series yet. We know Gin-sama's motivation (and considering it's been built up to for the past few episodes with Megu, I don't find it being "tip-toed around"), and we know Souseiseki's motivation. Shinku is a spectator and Barashuishou is the facilitators, so they are not major players in this fight. If I never found out about Barashuishou's motive at the end, or if it is revealed in a rushed, Gundam Seed-esque fashion, then I'd be pissed. But now, the end has not yet come, and 3 episodes is actually suffient enough to flesh out an antagonist.

Anyways, I didn't dislike this episode like Sorrow did. Maybe this has to do with me spoiling myself silly and reading Sorrow's comments beforehand, and probably also because I had lowered my expectation quite a bit when watching it. Still, while I do admit that the execution is a bit off, mainly rushed, I still see this episode as a good catalyst for the major confrontation that IMO is yet to come.

Sorrow-kun

01-06-2006, 02:53 AM

I don't have huge problems with the direction the plot is taking (past the Suigintou-Barasuisho alliance). A lot of it was inevitable... almost a natural course for events. My problem is the execution is lacking that layer of polish needed to make the events actually dramatic... as opposed to flat the way we saw in this episode. I still think the problem is that there's no time, and everything's now being rushed, and it really effects the story and pisses away a lot of the potential this series had at the beginning.
Souseiseki does not have any fancy attacks like Shinku's sakura petalsRose petals.

loner

01-06-2006, 10:57 AM

....Yes rose petals.

* loner goes to burn himself on a heap of of his own ****

Anyways, yes it's getting rushed. I still have hope this will turn around though. Remember that the first half of ep. 10 in the last season was still dedicated to humor and set up.

Sorrow-kun

01-06-2006, 07:40 PM

Good point. But at that stage of the last series, there wasn't a great deal that needed to be dealt with. 'Twas only Suigintou and Jun's Hikikomori were the outstanding issues at that date. Here, we have 6 dolls with uncertain fates, but all of which are going to be dealt with between now and the end. I can't see three episodes being enough to do this is any way but rushed.

loner

01-14-2006, 03:18 AM

ep. 10

So another doll down. I never liked Hinaichigo much, and seeing how pitiful her fighting ability is, she would be quickly dispatched in the Alice Game anyways. This seems to be, well, a good and logical way for her to go, since she has already lost to Shinku in a fight and is feeding off Shinku to survive. However, while this was triggered by the start of the Alice Game, it doesn't really have much relevance to the main story IMO. I think the scene with Tomoe didn't succeed as it would've, since Tomoe has not been given too much time in the show. I would love it if the show was just an episode or two longer, so that it'll allow enough time for Tomoe to show up more, and reveal her feelings about Hina, Jun and the Alice Game. The scene with her crying doesn't have the desired impact, since we don't really know about this character.

Well, Suigintou basically showed how much of an "alliance" it was between her and Barashuishou. Barashuishou however keep force her into a corner. And it seems true that her kind side only shows up to Megu, who is the only person she can relate to.

The preview shows us what the ultimate confrontation will be like. We see Suiseiseki teaming up with Shinku, and Shinku battling Barashuishou. Interestingly, we also see Souseiseki's scissors appear. Is Suigintou the one wielding it? And what exactly is Enju's role in Shirosaki/Barashuishou's scheme? They seemed to be doing things behind his back, yet now they revealed him as if he's the ultimate conspirator. And how is he the Father?

Hope the don't mess up the ending...

Sorrow-kun

01-15-2006, 10:57 PM

Episode 9 made me momentarily forget why I love Rozen Maiden. Episode 10 reminded me again.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/992/rm107tt.th.jpg (http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/992/rm107tt.jpg)

This! This is how you properly execute a death scene in Rozen Maiden. Sure, it's probably slightly melodramatic, but the build up to Hina Ichigo's end was done far better than Souseiseki's in the last episode. It makes sense that both characters are gone (Souseiseki for potentially holding Suiseiseki back, and Hina Ichigo for doing the same with Shinku), but of these two, I have a clear favourite regarding which death I thought was done better. It really should have been the other way around, since Hina Ichigo went out in relative peace, while Souseiseki died on the battlefield, but I'm still hung up on how badly they ****ed that previous episode up.

Animation seemed to be infinitely better this ep.

I'm so happy that the Barasuisho-Suigintou alliance was excessively shortlived. I predict (hope) that Gin-sama will murder Barasuisho if (when) they meet in combat.

Big plot twists at the end of the episode. No huge surprise that Enju was Father... almost all the foreshadowing strongly suggested it. What surprised me was that whatshisname turned out to be Frank... I mean Laplace's Demon (stupid causal universe).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: time is the biggest thing that concerns me. Only two eps remain, and obviously the final confrontation looms. My problem is that final confrontations are only rarely the highlight of a series, unless they're really really special. But this episode renews my hope that RM can end on a high.

Kei

01-20-2006, 12:12 AM

Finally caught up with Rozen Maiden Traumend.

I cried. Yeah, I did. Hina's death had that effect on me. She was one of my favorites, but at least she didn't go out like a punk like some other Rozen Maiden I know. I have to say, in the first series, I thought Suigintou was the most one dimentional character. Now, finally, she is getting some real depth. I really like what they've done with her character.

Barasuishou on the other hand is a different story all together. She is just as bad a character as Suigintou was in the first series. Shows up, fights, leaves, and says next to nothing. Boooooring. I hope she dies quick and fast to Shinku. Only a few episodes left, I have faith in them yet.

~Kei

loner

01-20-2006, 07:17 AM

Well again Kei, we don't know Barashuishou's motives yet, and her character will never be complete until then. I thought Suigintou was not a bad character because of the last episode, but then her cards were shown a bit too late. Still the first series focused on Jun and his problems, so it is understandable that the dolls are the supporting cast. Now that they are the main players are the dolls, I wonder if they can pull it off with Barashuishou with just 2 more episodes.

Ninja Realist

01-20-2006, 07:30 AM

Episode 10:

I think Hina Ichigo's death was definitely done better than Souseiseki's, but I have mixed feelings. I think the actual death scene worked quite well. I think this nis partially due to the fact that Tomoe was kind of a low-key, though definitely not one-dimensional, character and to see her show so much emotion was kind of off-putting. It was also sad to see how Hina Ichigo had come so far as a person and that she was dying as a far better person than who she was at the begginning of the show.

But I think the actual way she died was kind of a cop out. I mean she is just now starting to die? After a battle that took place quite a while back? Kind of lame if you ask me.

I also think the plot and characters are growing a little stale. I mean the plot was never very interesting to me, and they are trying to focus so much on the Alice Game and how it relates to "Father", which I find to be the most boring part of the show. I also think Shinku's reactions to the new tragedies are just too stiff and unfeeling. It almost makes it feel like the death's of these characters are going unnoticed, which really doesn't fit with how the show has been going up till now.

Oh, and my final prediction: Kanaria will die in Episode 11. She is really the only logical choice to die next.

Sorrow-kun

01-20-2006, 08:06 AM

Realist:There are some interesting conspiracy theories surrounding why Shinku appears overly calm about the tragedies happening around herUnfortunately, I'm not allowed to link to them, since they're on the forum of the site-we-do-not-speak-about. But, you know what. On this occassion, **** the rules! The intelligent discussion of anime takes precedence over a pre-historic obselete rule that has no place on an anime discussion board.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26342&page=8#post445288
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26342&page=8#post446843

Ninja Realist

01-20-2006, 08:22 AM

That's an interesting theory, but:

I kind of think that given the predictable nature of this show so far, I think it is almost beyond them to pull off that awesome of a twist. I think this show will most likely have either a reset button, or, more likely, everyone dies and Father's dream fails, which will lead to Jun finally getting the courage to face his life.

Sorrow-kun

01-20-2006, 08:56 AM

Unfortunately, I'm in agreement with you. A plot twist like that would be insane, but they hardly have the time to pull it off, let alone the balls (I would think). At the moment I seedeus ex machina Jun saving the day and bringing all the dolls back to lifeas the most likely ending. It could still be salvagable, but I saw this series with so much more potential. The plot's been fine, but the execution and poor pacing has really hurt this series, IMO.

loner

01-20-2006, 10:46 AM

Hmm seems like a few posts in that god-forsaken forum has led us astray. To be honest, as twisted as that plot twist sounds, it belongs to another series, since it would be completely opposite to the development of Shinku so far in this series. If she's been deviously plotting to win this game all along, then she's been the best actress in the world. I would actually be more pissed off if this does turn out to be the case.

As for us already saying how this is series has failed from reaching its potential and all that, well, it's um, not finished. So maybe he should save the judgments and reviews after we've seen this series. And Rozen Maiden have never been a plot-driven series, and instead focus much more on the characters and their development, something I think Traumend has done a very good job in. Since I never expected a ground-breaking, jaw-dropping plot with loads of twists, I am happy with what I'm getting so far. Of course, a bad, rushed ending would not only ruin the plot, but also the character developments, but again, i'd save that after I've seen the ending.

As for why Hina only died until now, well, her fight with Shinku was pre-Alice Game. Remember that she kissed Shinku's ring and became her servant. That means she can still leech off her energy and live. From what I can gather, the life force/energy of the dolls are from their mediums. Before the Alice Game, the dolls can still live off say their own energy (Suigintou and Suiseiseki), or that of another doll through that doll's medium. But once the the Alice Game started, you must find a real medium, or you die. Think of an HP meter that's constantly draining with your every movement, so you need to replenish it all the time. Once your energy runs out, you die, and your Rosa Mystica comes out. That's why Suiseiseki needed to find a medium, and why Barashuishou guided Megu to be Gin's medium. Now, I don't think the Rosa Mystica automatically transfers itself to the victor of a battle after the other doll had died. Suiseiseki still could've fought for Sou's Rosa Mystica it seems, but went after her body first, allowing Suigintou to charge after it and get it. In Hina Ichigo's case then, she lost her battle with Shinku in ep. 2 of the original series, but that was not an official Alice Game fight. She lost her medium though in the process, and is now living off Jun's power through Shinku. Therefore, i think the reason Hina died only now is not because she lost that battle to Shinku, but because she does not have a legitimate medium, as you can't use your competitor's power to fight her. So her energy runs out, and her Rosa Mystica came out. Shinku still wants to find ways to give it back to her and revive her, so she needs to time her death and go to get the Rosa Mystica immediately as it comes out, so someone like Barashuishou or Suigintou won't get it and use it for their own purposes.

Note that not only Hina lost a battle to Shinku, but so did Suigintou and Kanaria as pointed out by the posters of that god-forsaken forum. But since they were all before the openly fight of the Alice Game (Suigintou vs. Souseiseki), and therefore not part of it. In the first fight, all the dolls haven't gathered yet, and the Alice Game could not start. Therefore, even though Gin was burnt to crisp, her Rosa Mystica still didn't come out. The second fight, Kanaria lost to Shinku, but Shinku didn't finish her off. The Alice Game can start with all the dolls gathered, but it does not start unless one of the dolls kills another off.

Please note that ALL this is pure speculation. But it's fun to speculate, and plus I think it makes sense.

Ninja Realist

01-22-2006, 12:33 AM

Episode 11:

WARNING. IF YOU READ THIS SPOILER IT WILL RUIN THE ENTIRE EPISODE FOR YOU.

HOLY SHIT, following the mediocre 9 and 10th episodes this went off like a bomb, probably one of the best Rozen MAiden episodes yet. Ok, despite, admittedly, pacing issues, and the haphazard way in which the battles were arranged, this one was terrific.

For one, it finally affirmed the gravity of the situation. Until this epsiode the Alice Game seemed kind of distant, even with the death of Souseiseki, the poor dialogue and poor dramatic choices made it hard for me to take the Alice Game very seriously. But this epsiode really changed my perspective.

For one, I was finally really able to sense the sadness of Souseiseki's death. The scene in which Suiseiseki was staring at the lifeless Souseiseki and stroking her hair made me see her sadness much better than the Melodrama in 9. Also, this episode really showed how the Rozen Game was destroying everyones lives. When Nori rushed out to Lacrosse and told Suiseki and Shinku that she would see them later, I think everyone was thinking, "No they aren't coming back".

I would have to say the stars of this epsiode were Kanaria and Barasuisho. When Barasuisho kills Suiseiseki her brutality emerges in a manner that is far colder and far more frightening than Gin-Sama ever was. Seeing her lust for the Roza Mystica appear as such a strong emotion was startling, espexially when juxtaposed with the emotionless face she has shown thus far. Kanaria as well showed a totally new side. She finally was shown as a strong character who cared for her all of the other Rozen Maiden. The way in which she cared for Suiseiseki's soul and how she fought so passionately against Barasuisho, and almost won, was actually quite touching.

Finally, the memorable way in which Barasuisho, after having her arm ripped off, kills, and I use the word kill very strongly here, Kanaria was suprisingly brutal and unexpected. It was the kind of moment in anime where it was so surprising because it was breaking such a time honored cliche, in a very cliche ridden show. As Barasuisho advances on Kanaria, crystalline sword in her one hand, Kanaria stands in front of Suiseiseki's body and tells Barasuisho to stay away, that she is going to protect Suiseiseki, and it almost seemed to be one of those heroic moments where the hero, with sheer willpower alone musters the strength to fight off the enemy(I'm sure you've seen it many times before. But then without warning, the sound of Barasuisho impaling Kanaria with her sword punctuates Kanaria's heroic defiance. Having a good guy die in this kind of way, especially in such a cute, and tame anime, has a far greater effect than it would in any other show. This moment is also made even greater by the fact that this event finally manages to break Shinku's calm composure.

Yeah, sorry I gushed about that for so long, but that was probably my favorite scene in Rozen MAiden so far. Probably one of the greatest stabbings I've seen in an anime.

loner

01-22-2006, 01:57 AM

ep. 11

Obligatory spoiler tags

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I had a day off before I post about this episode to cool off. I can't. I'm still....ARGH! SHE ALMOST DID IT!! KANARIA ALMOST DID IT!!!! SHE ALMOST PWNED BARASHUISHOU COMPLETELY!!! ARGH!!!!

..........

That reminded me of how I felt when that computer genius kid in Battle Royale, who hacked down the entire system of the game, created tons of Molotov's cocktails and is about to totally pwn teh Man, was taken down brutally by that psycho killer. I was damn frustrated. He ALMOST did it. I was totally rooting for him. And likewise in this episode. Kanaria was cowardly at first, to the point of pathetic. But she came around...BIG TIME. Her final attack..she was THIS close to taking out Barashuishou, and seeing how her arm got torn off, she was indeed VERY close. But for a lucky break (pun intended) for Barashuishou. Urgh.

There will be some questions asked about the pacing. About wtf Shinku is doing all along, whether she has a plan or she is just out of it. About wtf is up with Rozen/Enju and Laplace. But when watching that episode, I could care less about all that. The fight was amazing. It had the perfect set up, especially with the subtle yet creepy tension during breakfast. The fight was chaotic and frantic, and I couldn't help but being emotionally charged by every scene. I was rooting for Suiseiseki and Kanaria all the way, hoping beyond hope that there's still hope for them, that they'd somehow take out Barashuishou. Kanaria vs. Barashuishou was the ultimate David vs. Goliath fight, and of course you want to root for the underdog. She was so close. But then reality struck. She's still not as strong as Barashuishou.

Barashuishou was absolutely frightening in this episode. Before 11, she has never really fought that seriously, but she has shown how ice-cold and twisted she is. I agree with Realist. She was much more frightening than Gin-sama. The stabbing scene is a great display of the power of subtlety. You don't see bloods, guts or doll stuffing gushing out of Kanaria. Everything is implied. But the shock is much more powerful and long-lasting than if everything is depicted clearly.

Alright, I need more time to collect my thoughts and give a more coherent and clear review of this episode. As of now, I still can't get that battle out of my head. If anything, that battle alone would make this episode great.

jesus christ Loner, make sure you put the right episode in your spoiler tags. Was listed as ep 10, I changed it to ep 11 for you :P ~Kei

Sorrow-kun

01-22-2006, 02:02 PM

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/2788/rm114yv.th.jpg (http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/2788/rm114yv.jpg)

Ah, decent again. Not quite up to the potential that I was hoping for from episode 1, but good enough, given the scare I was given in episode 9.

Ok, so a shitload has happened; some of it we guessed, some of it we didn't. The number of possible endings has shrunk, with deus ex machina Jun pulling a Mai-HiME being well and truly the most probable.

The build up was decently executed (thank God), with all the characters getting a brief appearance in the spotlight and having their motivations for fighting clearly explained. Rozen breaking his earlier statement of wanting to only see Alice is explained by his impatience... fair enough, I'll live with it. But the fact that he was... how do I put this... "compelled" by the Game itself, I found odd. Is he really that impatient to see Alice, or does he just want to see dolls kicking each others asses? Unless someone can come up with an explanation, I'll chalk this one up to a plot inconsistancy.

Kanaria falls despite a momentary heroic display. Very much out of her league, and suggests she hasn't done a lot of fighting in the past. Would she have hindered Suiseiseki so, had she not been there, like Shinku and Suiseiseki originally wanted? Who knows? But, then again Suiseiseki wouldn't have had a huge chance against either Barasuisho or Suigintou. Not without drawing power from her medium, anyway. Which is something that, oddly enough, none of the dolls did. Quite bizarre, in my opinion, since it's something that gave Shinku the winning edge in the first series.

Speculation for the next episode: Like I said, Jun winning the day for all is by far the most likely ending in my eyes. Personally, I think Shinku will beat Barasuisho in her weakened form.... with the possibility that Barasuisho, believing that she can no longer attain Alice with her missing arm, will give herself up (not totally dissimilar to the final episode of the first series; the difference being that Jun isn't likely to talk Barasuisho back into fighting in spite of her missing arm). Reason: I'm still of the suspicion that Barasuisho isn't out for the win, and that her role in all this was merely to be the catalyst that starts the Game, something that Rozen has ordered her to do out of his impatience to see Alice. After this, I see Gin-sama easily doing away with Shinku and winning the Alice Game and getting her much desired Roza Mysticae (and slightly less desired, but still prevalent revenge), only to have Jun.... etc, etc. Jun's confrontation with Rozen could be something to look out for. I have a suspicion that Jun could usurp Rozen's... role, I suppose as father from Enju, and stop the Game that way.

So, with one episode remaining, they've saved a bit of face by having a lot happen in this episode, without making it seem overly rushed. This series certainly hasn't lived up to the expectations I had for it at its outset, and I definitely think the first series is better, both story-wise and in its execution, but Traumend has been ok, nonetheless. To date. I'm looking forward to seeing how this ends

aeroshadow

01-23-2006, 06:45 PM

I had nothing to do today, with no school and all, so I went ahead and marathoned episodes two through eleven.

To be honest, I was not a huge fan of the original series, mostly because I was never able to truly accept Jun. Even now, when I watch him Traumend, I still cringe whenever he tries to steal the spotlight. Despite his development, inner kindness, and all that nonsense he was able to attain in the original series, his personality never really sat well with me. The fact that Traumend focuses upon the dolls moreso than Jun simply makes it that much easier to watch.

In my opinion, while episode nine was not executed as well as it could have been, it was acceptable. Character death fade into the beautiful ending theme always makes me feel good, and I did feel sadness, which was only capitalized upon further in the later episodes.

I enjoy the fact that the Rozen Maiden series in general has two general modes: the serious one, and the more light-hearted and kind of annoying comedic one. It really defines the series in general. However, I still think this series on occasion switches its mode a little too suddenly. On these occasions, I'm not quite sure exactly how to feel. I'm unsure if I should feel sad, if I should smile, or if I should do both. The atmosphere during these times isn't defined clearly enough for me feel exactly secure.

Also, Kanaria still felt too much like a stranger when the Alice Game started rolling. The attachment was there, but I was wishing for a little more before she had to go. I love the way she fights; it is so damn cool.

The last semi-important, semi-trivial thing that I was not quite content with was the fact that this show sometimes trips over itself when it comes to pacing. Ah, whatever.

I like this show. I'm hoping the final episode won't disappoint.

soundchazer

01-24-2006, 08:16 AM

I'm sorry to say this, but this sequel blows big time...

a) Kanaria was a waste of time. The fact that this character was completely useless and had almost no backstory or personality made the Suiseiseki sacrifice moot and unsinspiring.

b) The "death" of Souseiseki falls under the same category. This was a bland character, so when she died, I didn't create any emotional response i me.

c) Rozen ended up being another uninspiring character, who basically says nothing.

Seriously... this is a sequel that was not needed, nor executed correctly. They should have left the original Rozen Maiden the way it was. This sequel is dragging the series as a whole to the ground.

Sorrow-kun

01-24-2006, 09:11 AM

Disagree. Admittedly, the sequel isn't as good as the first series or up to the potential I saw in the first episode. But there has been a lot of good in this series, from Shinku's progressive development and the events surrounding Suigintou.Hina Ichigo's death was reasonably well executed. And Kanaria's momentary heroism in the latest episode made up for a lot of the flaws in her character.I will say I didn't hugely enjoy RM:T's attempt at comedy, particularly when it seemed to get bogged down by it and spend way too much time on it. Personally, I think it sapped far too much time from them more important events of the Alice Game, making the Game itself feel a tad rushed (particularly in episode 9). But these latest episodes have made a good fist of things nonetheless. The conflict is becoming far more enthralling as every episode passes, and, with any amount of luck, the conclusion should be a decent one.

The most important defence of this series is that the events of the Alice Game had to be told. Leaving them in the dark at the end of a single series makes the story feel largely incomplete, considering it was told right at the beginning of the first series that the Alice Game is the central reason for the dolls' existance, and a significant motivator for a lot of them. It had to be done. Could it have been done better? Most certainly. But it's been a satisfactory experience nonetheless.

soundchazer

01-24-2006, 09:15 AM

All I'm saying, if you are going to do a sequel as poor as this one to tell a piece of the story, you are better off not making the sequel.

The only genuine moving moment was knowing the fate of Hina Ichigo, and even that was overdone and poorly executed.

aeroshadow

01-24-2006, 11:59 AM

They should have left the original Rozen Maiden the way it was. This sequel is dragging the series as a whole to the ground.You say Souseiseki is bland. I can easily agree there. But Jun, who is the center of attention in the first series, isn't? Sure, throughout the original series he does manage to become a little more respectable... but he's still bland all the way through. Shinku, Suigintou, and Suiseiseki on the other hand, are much more fascinating, and I was glad they were able to gain a little more depth in this sequel.

I can accept Traumend has some problems here and there, but as a whole, I am enjoying this more than the original. What was so great about the first series anyways? Enlighten me.

soundchazer

01-24-2006, 12:11 PM

Not much, and I never said it was great, but I still find that the comedy works better, the dramatic moments work better, and both Shinku and Suigintou were utilized better there. All in all, there were less usless moments, and less useless characters.

Sure... it is always nice to get additional information about your characters, but you know what? That should not happen at the expense of creating many fake dramatic moments. We can do without the sick girl, Kanaria, Barasuishou, Laplace and Rozen himself. They are dull and have added little to the story other than being there to play their roles. And the fact that we have them there meant that characters like Hina Ichigou and Nori got less air time. Granted, they will never be incredibly deep characters, but for Pete's sake, at least they were more likeable and had more spark.

I disagree with you... Traument does not have some problems... it has A LOT of them. Heck, even the animation is not as crisp as the first series. Seriously, there hasn't been ONE element in which this anime has been better, and that is bad considering that the first series wasn't that good to begin with.

loner

01-24-2006, 02:47 PM

I will not talk about the worth of this series until I've finished it. For the argument's sake I'll follow your line of reasoning, SC.

And I completely disagree with you that Rozen Maiden doesn't need this sequel because this sequel sucked. The first series was incomplete, with the story of the dolls mentioned, but left behind in the shadow of the main focus, which is Jun's struggles. That part needed to be addressed, since while repeated hints as to what Alice Game is is given, we still can't perceive what it is. That part needs to be addressed. Whether you like how it is presented in the second series is another different issue. The first series needed a sequel, and just because you didn't like this subsequent sequel, doesn't mean that this series doesn't need a sequel in the first place.

And I will also throw this into the mix: that Rozen Maiden have never been a plot-centric show. It has always been about the characters. In the first series, Jun is the main focus. Considering how much time they've spent inside Jun's head, I think that point is clear. The plot has always played second fiddle to the examination and development of Jun's character. Meanwhile, Traumend has been about the dolls: their personality and character development have been the central focus. While Megu may not serve as any great purpose in the plot, she helped to flesh out Suigintou, who has except for a brief moment at the end of the first series, been a 2-D villain. We see what kind of person(er...doll) Souseiseki is, how she is blindly loyal to principles and can't let them go no matter what. We see the development of Suiseiseki and Hinaichigo. You can talk about there being too little time alloted and things feel rush, you can talk about these scenes lack good coordination, but you can't say things like Megu are useless because they add nothing to the plot. They do indirectly, by adding color to the character that she affects. It's like you say the early episodes of Mai HiME are useless because they don't add much to the plot. Are you able to enjoy the later, OMGWTFBBQ episodes without these earlier episodes?

Admittedly, there are some blatantly useless things in Traumend. Some continue/add to the charm of the series, but some, especially ep. 5, failed at comedy. That I wholly agree with Sorrow-kun.

You mentioned Laplace and Rozen as things not serving a purpose in the story. I'd reserve that comment until I had seen the last episode.

soundchazer

01-24-2006, 03:45 PM

Loner... you fail to see the point. Traumend has not set me up to say OMGWTFBBQ with those moments. They are just THERE. Sugintou was much more alive as character during the last battle of the first season than thru the sappy moments with the sick chick in the second.

Souseiseki does indeed become more than a 2D character, but she is still lame. Sorry.

Unless episode 12 is so groudbreaking in its approach (which I doubt given how poorly this sequel has been approached), this anime will indeed make Rozen Maiden as whole go from just decent to mediocre. It doesn't even deserve the comparison with Mai Hime because even if the episodes were "useless" they were for the most part fun to watch. That doesn't happen here.

If you don't believe that a poor followup can kill a story, look at the Superman movies, Star Wars or something more mundane like Smallville. A bad follow up can indeed kill a series and Traumend is doing that to Rozen Maiden. I still believe that I would rather have just the first season now that I've seen what they did with the second season.

loner

01-24-2006, 04:04 PM

And you fail to see my point too, in that I'm not talking about whether a sequel kills the series, but rather whether the series needs a sequel. You clearly said that they shouldn't bother making this since it sucked. I'm saying that it doesn't matter whether the sequel sucked or not, it still doesn't changed the fact that the original needed a sequel. Whether the Star Wars prequels or the Superman movies were needed, I won't get to it, but it seems clear to me, when the original talked so much about the Alice Game, that there should be more episodes so I can actually see what this Alice Game. Whether they failed to present this in a decent manner is another question.

Anyways, the fact that Star Wars I-III sucked didn't make the original trilogy any less entertaining. The fact that the subsequent Superman movies sucked didn't make the original any less good a movie. If Rozen Maiden and Traumend were to be graded together as one series, then yeah, go ahead and say that this season brought the grade down. But as far as I can see, here in AA, Rozen Maiden has already been reviewed as a seperate series, and rightfully now that I think about it. While they are obviously related, as one follow directly the other, they have different focuses and should be reviewed seperately.

And since you yourself stated a possibility (however remote you think that possibility is) that the last episode can have a great influence on your judgement, I recommend you to save those judgments till then. After all, a last episode could have great impact on our final opinion of a series. Case in point Mai HiME.

soundchazer

01-24-2006, 05:36 PM

No no no... Mai Hime was not about a last episode. Don't try to make it sound like it was all about the last episode. It was the last third of Mai Hime that made the series great. Traumend already went past that and it still sucks. Episode 11 was a joke. The battles were boring, and the drama was... well... non-existent really.

It would really had to be the end all beall of anime endings for me to change my mind.

And again... Rozen Maiden may had indeed left the opening for this sequel, but my approach to this anime is the same one I have for Berserk... even though Berserk also needed a sequel given the way it ended, I would rather NOT have a sequel made if it means degrading the quality of the series overall. I'm not saying they should be graded in group, I'm just saying that I don't agree with the idea of making sequels if the effort is not put to make it right, and quite honestly, I don't see any effort put together in Traumend at all.

loner

01-24-2006, 05:55 PM

* loner shrugs

Suit yourself then. Then we'll be getting down about the quality of the show, which I'll only discuss after the last episode. Still, I want a Berserk sequel, good or bad, because leaving it cut off like that no matter what leaves the viewer with a bad taste. I will hope before a sequel is make that it'll be good, because the original series is good, yet its defect being that it is unfinished. If the sequel fails to live up to my expectation, I'll be disappointed in the sequel, but won't question the fact that a sequel needs to be made. Pointless sequels are those that are created for series/movies that never needed a sequel in the first place to stand alone (Star Wars comes to mind) or a sequel to something totally horrendous that a continuation would just cause more suffering (MD Geist 2).

And btw, I'm not saying the last episode of Mai HiME made the series great. I'm implying that the last episode actually bad, and degraded the entire series for me.