Ninja Discrimination?

[geekygirl]

Prehaps it's a dumb question, but I've been bothered by it for awhile....

I've come across a number of anime having samurai characters, but there doesn't seem to be many with ninja characters. Does anyone happen to know why this is? (..."watch more anime" is also a valid answer since my assumption is based on a *relatively* small pool of data!)

[Tamashii]

No true answer. But I prefer this:

Samurai > Ninja

[ninja velmor]

i would have to say becuase samurai have an important part in history. you don;t look at your global text books and see things about ninjas in them. so thats my reason. i would perfer ninjas over samurai tho. becuase ninjas are the shiznight.

[DarkKanti]

Originally posted by Tamashii
Samurai > Ninja

Yeah, Samurai's are definately cooler than ninjas. But there are actually quite a few ninja animes out there. Just keep looking. In fact. Why don't you check out the library, I'm sure they've got some in there.

[setanta]

hmm...maybe because it is easier for artists to draw samurai suits then ninja clothes? just a though

[ninja velmor]

Originally posted by setanta
hmm...maybe because it is easier for artists to draw samurai suits then ninja clothes? just a though


umm. ok, samurai suits are either the kimono things. or the big things of armour. where a ninjas outfit is like one color. that just is real stupid. anyway. ninjas are better then samurai.

[Tamashii]

Originally posted by setanta
hmm...maybe because it is easier for artists to draw samurai suits then ninja clothes? just a though

It really depends. There are several different types of ninjas and they all dress very differently. There are also samurai who dress in either cloth or armor. The latter is much more difficult to animate. But either way, you can't really compare and contrast samurai and ninja clothing. There are several varieties and the "difficulty" would vary, too.

[Spilled Milk]

Isnt Naruto about Ninjas? and Ranma 1/2 has Sasuke (lol)! I honestly never thought about that before but I guess you are right Geeky Girl. cuz Naruto is the onley one I've heard alot of about ninjas. and well I'm assuming Ninja scroll is about Ninja's also. that's an anime right? I've only really heard it mentioned so I can't remember if its an anime or not. anyway I'm gonna shut up cuz this post is kinda like me thinking out loud and I bet thats really annoying.....good bye.

[Tamashii]

Originally posted by ranmagirltype
Isnt Naruto about Ninjas? and Ranma 1/2 has Sasuke (lol)! I honestly never thought about that before but I guess you are right Geeky Girl. cuz Naruto is the onley one I've heard alot of about ninjas. and well I'm assuming Ninja scroll is about Ninja's also. that's an anime right? I've only really heard it mentioned so I can't remember if its an anime or not. anyway I'm gonna shut up cuz this post is kinda like me thinking out loud and I bet thats really annoying.....good bye.

Take a look at the library (or you can do a Search)...

We've got:

Ninja Scroll
Ninja Cadets
Ninja Resurrection

... you get the idea. Something that I just noticed is that there aren't many good "ninja anime", for the exception of Naruto. Wait, nevermind. Naruto is on the edge of mediocrity and satisfactory, so it wouldn't necessarily be "good" (as in Kenshin OVA good).

[Kuzu Ryu Sen]

Because a common theme in anime is the samurai being unable to cope with changing times and all that crap, and you can't do anything with ninja in terms of a deeper message or theme.

[PsychoSaiya-jin]

You just haven't been looking hard enough. Ninja are stealthy lil rascals!

Except Shinobuden. Thats like lil Ninjas stealing crack from the Digi-Charat people.

[w0lfW00ds_gh0st]

well if u like ninjas so much, then watch Naruto, ITS ALL ABOUT THEM NINJAZ!!!!!!! plus it kicks major ass =P and when it comes to ninjas not being in anime, well its cuz ppl are stupid and they cant come up with good ninja stories!!!! tho samurai are also cool ^^

[Tamashii]

Originally posted by w0lfW00ds_gh0st
well if u like ninjas so much, then watch Naruto, ITS ALL ABOUT THEM NINJAZ!!!!!!! plus it kicks major ass =P and when it comes to ninjas not being in anime, well its cuz ppl are stupid and they cant come up with good ninja stories!!!! tho samurai are also cool ^^

After 20 or so episodes, I highly recommend those who hate DBZ to discontinue watching this series.

[soundchazer]

Originally posted by Tamashii
After 20 or so episodes, I highly recommend those who hate DBZ to discontinue watching this series.


Amen to that, brother, amen to that.

[AlterGenesis-X]

Well, Ninjas aren't necessarily skilled. While, if you're a Samurai, you are skilled in some way. Ninjas are stealthy, hide in the dark, stab you when you're not looking kinda people. You don't focus a plot on these dudes. :D

[Shadowman20xx]

Well, Ninjas aren't necessarily skilled. While, if you're a Samurai, you are skilled in some way. Ninjas are stealthy, hide in the dark, stab you when you're not looking kinda people. You don't focus a plot on these dudes.
I think the amount of skill you'd need to train to become good at stealth and silent kills is just as much as a Samurai would need. While ninja's aren't main characters a lot there usually is a ninja type character in any action anime.

[Lupinthe3rd]

Acctually their is alot of Ninja's in Anime but most are not popular or brought to the mainstream or never heard of the Anime. I happend to like Wrath of the Ninja and Samurai's and Ninja's allway's fight each other trough history...

[geekygirl]

I don't particularly care about ninjas one way or the other (I'd watch anime about curling so long as it was entertaining!); I was just suprised that they didn't show up more often (though apparently there are more than a few titles to choose from:)

I suppose the question came to me in as part of a comparison of the bounty of ninja related "products" and cameos found in North America compared to samurai "stuff". There's always ninja costumes available for Halloween, ninja toys, ninja turtles, ninja video games, and evil ninja henchmen in bad TV and video, but not much in the way of the samurai. Maybe its just a difference in marketing strategies....

[Madoka]

If anyone likes ninjas, you would probably like seeing them in action in Peace Maker Kurogane -- shinobi play a large part in the story.

I actually can't think of any other anime offhand that feature ninjas other than the ones Tamashii already mentioned in the thread.

[loplop]

I think that Samurai were always considered more honorable than Ninja in Japanese culture, so hence they are used more . . . .

[Samuraiblues]

Ninja's were seen as unhonorable because their main job was assassination and sabotage, while samurai's served with loyalty and were trustworthy. Good point though i could see an anime about a ninja assassin or something like that.

[Animefanboy]

To add to that the Ninja were seen as lower than common pesants.

[icelava]

Generalisation: Samurai are like your public knights and ninja your stealthy commandos conducting raids behind enemy lines.

But anyway, enough of the nonsense, and on to the real argument ;)
http://www.realultimatepower.net/

[Keitaro]

"watch more anime"

[commie42]

SAMURAI NINJAS! ohhhh yeah

[Rue]

Originally posted by Tamashii
After 20 or so episodes, I highly recommend those who hate DBZ to discontinue watching this series.

Thats weird, I really reaaaally hate DBZ. But I've enjoyed it all the way up to episode 94 and 200+ chapters of the manga.

[ninja velmor]

i would have to say naruto has alot of the same elements of DBZ. but it changes up a bit. i enjoy it more, theydon;t make naruto win alkl his fights just becuase hes the main character like dbz does with goku.

[TenshiIchiban]

The main character of Blood Reign is a Ninja, even though he is not very sneaky and most of his clan is dead.

Flame of Recca is about the last remnant of a Ninja clan.

I am not recommending either of these series as I thought they were mediocre at best, but they do have Ninja.

In general I would not be surprised if there are not as many anime that randomly drop a Ninja into the mix as there are ones with Samurai (E.G. the Samurai buddy of Lupin's from Lupin III or the Samurai assassin lady from Outlaw Star), because Ninjas are not nice people. While most people can empathize with what can be grossly described as an oriental knight, there are not a lot of people who will instinctively root for a black hearted, ultra-skilled, killer/thief for hire. This sort of person just does not seem to fit well with your average group of heroes, or even anti-heroes. To make matters worse, from time to time I see a character whose past or career is closer to that one would expect from a ninja labeled as a Samurai for the simple reason that Samurai get more exposure. Not to mention that any sane Ninja would be more than a little leery of Ninjas getting a lot of even semi-accurate publicity.

[hekikuu]

Originally posted by PsychoSaiya-jin
You just haven't been looking hard enough. Ninja are stealthy lil rascals!

Except Shinobuden. Thats like lil Ninjas stealing crack from the Digi-Charat people.

I think this says it. Samurai are loud; ninja are silent. Mostly.

[Bio]

Ninjas as they were in their time in japan will not be found a lot, they were the bad guys, bad useless guys all they did was thievery ,kidnapping and assassinations.

Ninjas as you see in naruto and most of the other anime it totally fictional!!!

[TenshiIchiban]

Originally posted by Bio
Ninjas as they were in their time in japan will not be found a lot, they were the bad guys, bad useless guys all they did was thievery ,kidnapping and assassinations.

Ninjas as you see in naruto and most of the other anime it totally fictional!!!

I would not say that they were useless; the ninja was so feared because they were so very deadly. If you can kill the right handful of men, not necessarily the commanders, any group of men will dissolve into an undisciplined mob, even Samurai were susceptible to having their leadership destroyed. In fact they were probably more vulnerable to it since anyone who could kill off a Daimyo stood a good chance of having some of that Daimyo's Samurai turn bandit to plague whoever took over after him. Also, using ninja during the Tokugawa Era was probably a whole lot safer then an all out attack as it would be harder to trace back to you.

[Bio]

Originally posted by TenshiIchiban
I would not say that they were useless; the ninja was so feared because they were so very deadly.


Good point ,still ninjas as they were are useless for the anime ,it's very hard to have a hero who is a bastard trying to kill some1 because he was paid 2!!

They are good as only tools used by the bad guys and not the bad guy himself(make naruto an exception) and remember the more there are the easier they are to kill.

[Illjwamh]

Originally posted by Tamashii

Samurai > Ninja
Au contraire, mon ami. Ninjas were highly skilled, and feared by just about everyone (including the Samurai).
Originally posted by Tamashii
After 20 or so episodes, I highly recommend those who hate DBZ to discontinue watching this series.
I highly recommend watching more than that much of a series so long before passing judgement on it. Besides, the first 23 episodes or so are the least interesting in my opinion.

I hate it when people liken Naruto to Dragonball Z. Just because Kishimoto was a fan of Dragonball in his youth does not mean the series are anything close to alike. In fact, if you take out the fighting element, they really don't have that much in common. Naruto is far superior to Dragonball Z.
Originally posted by AlterGenesis-X
Well, Ninjas aren't necessarily skilled. While, if you're a Samurai, you are skilled in some way. Ninjas are stealthy, hide in the dark, stab you when you're not looking kinda people. You don't focus a plot on these dudes. :D
See my above argument.


In short, gentlemen, Ninja > Samurai. Less honorable sure, but I'd rather have a ninja on my side if my life was on the line.

[icelava]

Originally posted by PsychoSaiya-jin
Except Shinobuden. Thats like lil Ninjas stealing crack from the Digi-Charat people.Just picked up this one. It's a big fat joke just about right for young teenagers.

[JaQuais J.]

I'm probly stupid for this but..........I never knew ninjas and samurai were diffrent things. :doh

[ninja velmor]

Originally posted by Bio
Good point ,still ninjas as they were are useless for the anime ,it's very hard to have a hero who is a bastard trying to kill some1 because he was paid 2!!

They are good as only tools used by the bad guys and not the bad guy himself(make naruto an exception) and remember the more there are the easier they are to kill.


i don't think it would be hard to make a ninja based anime with a ninja killing people for just pay. some of berserl was like that, and i thought it gave the anime more feeling.

[Taleweaver]

Let's set a few things straight.

First: Naruto. People here consider Naruto "ninja anime".
Bullshit.
Naruto is about ninja the same way "Lain" is about the Middle Ages. Some people in Lain call themselves "knights", but that does not make them knights by the definition of the word. The "ninja" of Naruto are some sort of Dragonball-ish tournament fighters.

Second: Ninja are assassins. True. They are also spies, thieves, infiltrators, instigators and, most of all, the scum of the earth. In medieval times, Japan had a three-class society system with the samurai on top, the peasants in the middle and the lowly scum like butchers, peasant entertainers, prostitues and miners on the bottom. Ninja were members of the third class, the hinin ("non-people") or eta. Most peasants believed that ninja were demonic spirits drinking the blood of children and participating in evil cults while most low-ranking samurai didn't believe that ninja actually existed. (The fact that a samurai could be executed for reporting he saw a ninja but was unable to catch or kill him probably was the reason for this belief.) The daimyo, however, exactly knew what ninja were - after all, they were the ones sending them on missions.

Why aren't there many anime on ninja? Probably because samurai make for better drama. Ninja are already the lowest of the low; if they fail, the can't fall much lower. (That's also the reason why Shakespeare's tragedies are about kings - it is much more dramatic when a king falls.) Samurai are nobility and yet quite a lot of them were frowed upon by society (think ronin), they had a highly restrictive code of honor which could bring them into all sorts of moral dilemmas, and of course, they are great as heroic figures. Ninja are lacking all three of these attributes.

[Bio]

Originally posted by ninja velmor
i don't think it would be hard to make a ninja based anime with a ninja killing people for just pay. some of berserl was like that, and i thought it gave the anime more feeling.

From ur avator i assume u watch naruto, in the 17th or the 18th episode ,zabuza and kakashi talked about the meaning of the ninjas as they are only tools.

They do not act on their own except to protect their existence. bad guys can't be that negative!!

[jl11210]

To add more on Taleweaver fyi ninjas are were seen unhonorable in midevial japan but they were the reason they ended the wars in mideviel japan I forgot who the faction was but they hired the all the Ninjas in japan and eventually defeated the rest of the warlords in japan which brought peace to the land until the europeans and americans discovered japan. And ninjas are far more skilled then any samuria could ever be. As for why they are not in more anime I dont know

[Senshi]

if your talking about historical ninjas... then thats because there werent all that many... so you wouldnt see many in anime...

otherwise there are plenty of ninja animes... granted not as much as Samurai animes, but I think thats cause ninjas are supposed to be evil...

also a thing to remember is that alot of Samurai animes have ninjas in them... ninjas just kinda worked in the background...

[Bio]

Originally posted by Senshi
otherwise there are plenty of ninja animes... granted not as much as Samurai animes, but I think thats cause ninjas are supposed to be evil...



I remember that ninjas used black magic to defeat their enemies ,some of their techniques were used by some Arab magicians and got explained later.

[Maphistas]

I guess the reason for ninja stories are hard to come by is that, unlike Samarai that are known for thier history kept in records, the Shinobi only have a few stories. Maybe during thier life in the profession, they want their identities hidden and only to be passed on thru thier clients.

[Illjwamh]

In general I would not be surprised if there are not as many anime that randomly drop a Ninja into the mix as there are ones with Samurai (E.G. the Samurai buddy of Lupin's from Lupin III or the Samurai assassin lady from Outlaw Star), because Ninjas are not nice people. While most people can empathize with what can be grossly described as an oriental knight, there are not a lot of people who will instinctively root for a black hearted, ultra-skilled, killer/thief for hire. This sort of person just does not seem to fit well with your average group of heroes, or even anti-heroes. To make matters worse, from time to time I see a character whose past or career is closer to that one would expect from a ninja labeled as a Samurai for the simple reason that Samurai get more exposure. Not to mention that any sane Ninja would be more than a little leery of Ninjas getting a lot of even semi-accurate publicity.

Ninjas as they were in their time in japan will not be found a lot, they were the bad guys, bad useless guys all they did was thievery ,kidnapping and assassinations.

Ninjas as you see in naruto and most of the other anime it totally fictional!!!
Riiiight.

After going over this thread again I have come to the conclusion that nobody on these boards knows a damn thing about ninja.

I guess the reason for ninja stories are hard to come by is that, unlike Samarai that are known for thier history kept in records, the Shinobi only have a few stories. Maybe during thier life in the profession, they want their identities hidden and only to be passed on thru thier clients.
This is the most accurate thing anybody has said in almost three pages of stereotypes and nonsense.

[Devotion]

Look at it this way. If you are an anime producer, which do you think has more appeal? A bunch of people reputed for skulking in the dark, climbing rooftops and trees, or a bunch people reputed for being noble and skilled warriors?

[ShinoMatrix]

Look at it this way. If you are an anime producer, which do you think has more appeal? A bunch of people reputed for skulking in the dark, climbing rooftops and trees, or a bunch people reputed for being noble and skilled warriors?

What?

This is a very weak argument. Diluted piss weak, if you ask me. Dark characters, undertones and stories have never been a subject that anime producers avoided. In fact, there's an obvious fascination with the unknown and mysterious, attributed to these sorts of story directions which not only attract said producers but also actually enthralls the viewers. From gangsters to bounty hunters and pretty much any other kind of "low life" or characters with little credibility, there's an anime bound to be made about it already.

Oh, and ninjas... being reputed for "skulking in the dark, climbing rooftops and trees," have nonetheless their own sense of nobleness.

[Tremolo]

Look at it this way. If you are an anime producer, which do you think has more appeal? A bunch of people reputed for skulking in the dark, climbing rooftops and trees, or a bunch people reputed for being noble and skilled warriors?

Is that a rhetorical question? There's been like, anime about both.

Since the dark days of 2004 when this thread started and has since provided considerable lulz value...

I remember that ninjas used black magic to defeat their enemies ,some of their techniques were used by some Arab magicians and got explained later.

Wahahahaha!

...Yeah. Since then, there's been a bloody good ninja anime called Basilisk (that not a lot of people watched when it was on), which whilst taking the usual anime route of bolting on lots of supernatural, f*cked-up elements to everything, there's a nice love story and it's better than Naruto. Imagine X-Men, but with ninjas, romance and a higher death toll and you're about there. High production values, good action...another count against this apparent "ninja discrimination" thing.

[Ninja Realist]

Look at it this way. If you are an anime producer, which do you think has more appeal? A bunch of people reputed for skulking in the dark, climbing rooftops and trees, or a bunch people reputed for being noble and skilled warriors?

Unlikable characters can be just as interesting as likable characters.

[Devotion]

The topic isn't about the nonexistence of ninja animes. It's about the frequency of appearances of ninjas in animes compared to that of samurais. With that in mind, any information merely pointing out the existence of ninja animes is irrelevant; you would need comparative information. The same can be said for the following:

From gangsters to bounty hunters and pretty much any other kind of "low life" or characters with little credibility, there's an anime bound to be made about it already.
Non-applicable without a comparison of the number of animes about shady character to those about noble--or at least striving--heroes. In fact, a comparison would almost certainly point to a majority in the latter. You've only generalized my argument about ninjas and samurais.

[Mana]

Just because I have seen a few people quoting old posts...

This IS a thread from 2 years ago. There's no problem with ressurecting it, I suppose, but it's not really worth trying to reply to people who aren't around anymore.

[PerfectDeath]

Riiiight.

After going over this thread again I have come to the conclusion that nobody on these boards knows a damn thing about ninja.
It's easy to tell someone they are wrong, it's even harder to tell them why.

I'm interested in hearing what you believe to be true about ninja.

From what i have heard, there is only one guy who considers himself the "last ninja" and he's got people trying to learn from all over the world.
The ninja's reputation was that they are honor-less to the samuri, but everyone has their own honor. But since samuri hatted ninja, they would go to great lengths to capture, torture and kill ninja.

Does this make samuri anime superior than ninja??

Nope, it shouldn't anyway >_>
it all depends on how well the anime is made. In fact doing an anime with BOTH ninja and samuri would be quite good, because of their hate, instant conflict.

Also i have recently seen the first episode for a ninja anime... anf frankly it SUCKED!! It was a shool-ish harem anime with ninja females everywere >_>

The anime didn't suck because of the ninja, it sucked because it was done poorly <_<
very poorly >_>

[Illjwamh]

It's easy to tell someone they are wrong, it's even harder to tell them why.

You're absolutely right.

What I meant was that people were taking all the stereotypes and propoganda that have been spread around about ninja for hundreds of years and repeating it as truth. Ninja were not "black-hearted killing machines", nor were they exclusively assassins and spies.

The ninja culture existed outside of mainstream Japanese culture, and thus they had their own system of morals and values. Since these values differed from what most Japanese considered important, ninja were labelled "dishonorable" and the like. But since they had no qualms about doing certain things with their skills - such as dispatching an enemy through stealth rather than in a fair fight - that samurai or an ordinary Japanese person would not do, they often ended up being hired to do such jobs, and got a bad reputation. It wasn't that that was all they did, but rather they were the only ones willing to do it. Most ninja villages lived in peace and isolation most of the time.

As far as the standard image of a ninja goes, dressed all in black and whatnot, that's pretty ridiculous. Most of the time they appeared just like normal people, which allowed them to move about nearly anywhere undetected. And of course everyone knows the whole "ninja-tou" or ninja sword is a modern fabrication as well. Why would a person who belonged to a group whose occupation and very livelyhood depended entirely on stealth and infiltration carry around a weapon that would immediately single them out as a member of that group? When ninja had to use swords, they would use katana or or wakizashi, just like everybody else.

[Senshi]

http://www.askaninja.com/

the authority.

[Tyrdium]

[propaganda]LIEZ. You must be one of them pesky pie-rats.

[PerfectDeath]

Illjwamh, their "ninja-tou" and clothing would have came from some aspect of what they chose to use. Of course, when they are sneaking into a town to assassinate someone, they sure wouldn't go in any suspiciouse clothing cairring suspiciouse weapons.
But if they were infiltrating a place were civilians wern't found, they would probably use equipment that would be more effective.

[Kimura-san]

Couldnt it be rooted in the cultural? Although ninjas were probably really useful as a whole to the samurai, it didnt mean they were honourable. This could be reflected in the fact that samurai are covered more in anime.

Although Naruto tries to dispel this, it covers more about ninja philosophy rather than actual practise which is why they're much cooler as it shows ninja code of honour. However this is not the same as the samurais.

[PsychoSaiya-jin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/archives/ninja.php
It is beleived that Ninja never really existed in history or at least there are no reliable records of them. They exist largely in legends and popular fiction.

[General Suburbia]

It is beleived that Ninja never really existed in history or at least there are no reliable records of them. They exist largely in legends and popular fiction.
even more lies!!!

[Illjwamh]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/archives/ninja.php
It is beleived that Ninja never really existed in history or at least there are no reliable records of them. They exist largely in legends and popular fiction.
This is mainly because there are very few - almost none - written records of their existence. Since they kept their secrets to themselves, they didn't really write a lot of it down, and what they did mostly wouldn't be given out to scholars trying to study them, for sure. The few records we have are accounts of people who'd seen them in some capacity, and records kept by those who hired them to do certain things. And those are sparse enough that they really can't be used as definitive evidence on the existence of shinobi either way. Certainly many things about them are no more true than American tales of Paul Bunyan and the like, but the fact that so many people seem to take their existence for granted seems like evidence enough to me that they really did. Stories have to start somewhere.

And there are still small schools today which supposedly teach the ways of a few old ninja clans, if watered down a bit.




As for the ninja-tou, I can assure you that historically such a sword did not exist. It is a fabrication of the 20th century, and any you see will have been made as props, or as collectible for sword-enthusiasts - like "Sting" from the Lord of the Rings. I can buy a real sword that looks exactly like it, but that doesn't mean such a sword ever existed in the real world.

As for their clothing...well, I don't really know. I suppose the all-black garb "tradition" had to come from somewhere, so it may very well have a basis in historical reality, but it seems odd to me.

[PerfectDeath]

Most of it was probably fabricate to some extent, but enough clothing to cover your face and body so little light colors would show would probably be usefull for the seaking around when you don't want to be seen. Though i doubt that would be practical, jsut kill a guard and take his clothes =P


I don't think we should use the naruto world to describe ninja... It just doesn't even work scientifically @_@ let alone practically.

[PsychoSaiya-jin]

even more lies!!!
Nonsense. Do you mean to tell me that:
"It is not beleived by anybody that Ninja never really existed in history. Their are many reliable records of them. Despite the fact that the history of the ninja is so well documented there does not exist a single legend or popular fiction work that contains them."
?

[General Suburbia]

Nonsense. Do you mean to tell me that:
"It is not beleived by anybody that Ninja never really existed in history. Their are many reliable records of them. Despite the fact that the history of the ninja is so well documented there does not exist a single legend or popular fiction work that contains them."
?
:bews:
actually, that was sarcasm.

[PsychoSaiya-jin]

:bews:
actually, that was sarcasm.
really? :D